Webber Vs. Holly

[Alex Hodgson]

Alex,
Snap! We really must meet up and put our cars next to each other.

Hi Tony,
Nice Too hear from you again, You got webbers or Holly.

How is she Running

Alex

 

[Tony Hunt]

Hi Alex,
I have a Holley 4160 750cfm. I used to be a dab hand with 4 cyl Webers, but doubling them up would be too fiddly for me. The Holley is set up and forget.
Last autumn we had a dyno session and I recorded 305bhp. More than enough for me.
Haven't heard from you since 2009 - if you rejoin the Club, you could come to the (nearly free) track day at Donington next May.

 

[Eric Johnson]

Alex,
I have a little 289 Ford with a 600vac sec Holley and 4 speed in a very early Ford falcon and would never change the carb.They are fantastic in that application.Originally designed by Smokey Yunick but thats another story.I also have a 347 Weber equipped GT40 RF.Carbs are early Italian 48IDA and after initial issues being sorted (2nd hand when purchased) I do not experience the problems some others on this forum do with Webers.I have nothing but praise for them and when understood are simple.Most issues are in the linkages and not emulsions/idles/airs etc.Starts every time whether hot/cold/warm/stalled.
There is nothing like seeing those carbs through the rear window of a GT40.It is what most enthusiasts expect and like to see.Just beats that round air cleaner every time.
Holleys are definately cheaper and in some cases produce more top end HP (NASCAR run Holleys or similar) but never the nostalga of seeing Webers.If you have the money do it.Great sound.Great experience.Horsepower care factor Holley over Weber "0".Cheers.

+1 Chris

I'm happy with my decision to go with the Webers. They start every time as well, idle immediately and stay in sync. The throttle response is amazing. Love 'em.

 

[Ron Earp]

Wondered how long before someone used 'spellcheck' on this one, surprised it was an Aussie though

Ok Mr. Spelling Bee. Do I need to dredge up your misspellings on the forum for everyone to see?:square:

 

[Jimmy P]

Any chance you could let us in on the secret now?

Nick,
I'm told by a man who drove many a Weber set up car that this is how to start a "hot engine" equipped with Weber's.

1) Push the throttle slowly to the floor and hold for a second or two.
2) Holding the throttle to the floor start the engine.

Not sure if its works as I've yet to try it. But I'm sure others on this thread can chime in as to how they do it. I'm interested and will probably start a thread on it in the proper area or this forum.

But to insure I don't move this thread away from its intented goal I'll mirror what Chirs Coote wrote....I can not say it any better. Well said sir!

Nice looking car too. Thanks.

 

[Alex Hodgson]

Like the starting Idea nick but Iwould be sure to take your foot of the gas as soon as she fires!!!

As for Tony's Post Above I thought I was still a member, I must have forgot to pay those subs lol

I'l have to get a form and fill it out again..

Alex:thumbsup:

 

[Keith]

Interesting what Jimmy said. Back in the middle of the "last century" when points style ignition and mechanical fuel pumps was the order of the day, apart from damp, the biggest issue with starting was caused by over exuberant use of the choke control and "pumping" the throttle which ended up flooding the cylinders and wetting the plugs. This was for any style carb whether it was SU, Stromberg, Solex whatever. (Webers were never seen on the average street)

With the weak spark generated from points and rotor arms in dodgy caps unable to spark the raw fuel, the quick trick to curing this condition was to crank on a WOT for a few spins when it would usually catch on one or two cylinders. Quickly releasing the throttle would most likely see the rest of the cylinders light up with attendant black smoke from the exhaust.

Plus ca change etc...

 

[Nick]

I thought the problem was Webber vs. Vettel. Who is Holly and which team does he drive for?

Like it :laugh:

1) Push the throttle slowly to the floor and hold for a second or two.
2) Holding the throttle to the floor start the engine.

Thanks for the reply. As an aside, and a useful bit of information, if anyone is ever in one and the need arises this method usually works on a 1935 Hudson straight 8 engined Brough Superior, which indecently, are notorious for over heating and fuel vaporisation issues.

 

[Mike Pass]

A couple of bits of info that might be of interest. I can't remember the source as I have had them a long time and the brain cells aren't what they were.
Holley v Webers

Tested back to back 331cu
Weber outdid Holley through midrange but overtaken by Holley at top
Results Holley left column:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Engine specs:
Stroke 3.25 5.400 rod length, Crower ultra light crank 11.0 CR
Head: Victor JR 301.5/200.5 @.600,Victor Junior manifold
Buddy Rawls flat tappet cam:.592/.544,262/264 @.50
Holley or Weber carbs.

H H W W
RPM Tq Hp Tq Hp
4000 338 257 382 291
4400 371 311 400 335
4800 398 364 449 411
5200 411 407 441 436
5600 413 440 438 467
6000 412 470 434 496
6400 400 488 422 515
6800 401 519 399 517
7000 390 534 386 514

Cheers
Mike

 

[Jimmy P]

The plot thickens.....

 

[Mike Pass]

My view is that the Webers look great but the sound inside the car is not particularly that great as the front two carbs are much nearer your ear and so these dominate the noise so it can sound a bit like a motor with less cylinders. Outside the car you do get a nice induction roar. Once either carb is set up properly on a dyno or rolling road they both perform well and will stay in tune unless the motor setup changes. The Webers feel more sudden probably due to the much bigger change in open throttle area as there are 8 chokes in operation as opposed to the 2 (or 4 for double pumper) so the total open area gets bigger much faster. Setup can cost more on the webers as there are 8 of everything - chokes, mains, emulsion tubes, air correctors, pump jets and return jets. These can add up to a lot unless your tuning guy will do swaps on his stock of parts. Check the fuel pressure before you start.
The manifolds are a bit pricey compared to a Holley one - £800 plays £300. Also the issue of vacuum pickup on a Weber manifold needs thinking about if you run servo brakes. There are also a few options on getting good air filtration on the Webers as most effective solutions tend to spoil "the look". The issue of a choke doesn't really matter on either as a good pump or 5 on the throttle will get them running and you would warm the engine up anyway - wouldn't you. So the 48 IDA will look better/more original than the IDFs
The cost issue is important as the cost of the Webers is quite high compared to a Holley. personally I would be very wary of used carbs as many have problems with worn spindles. I once had a pair of DCOEs which I never got to run right and gave up on eventually as they had been drilled with extra transition openings for use with a blow through turbo! Check all old carbs (W and H) very carefully for warped flanges, cracks, redrilled jets, bored out chokes etc. etc.
At the end of the day it's down to personal choice. There is no wrong or right - it's what you want and are willing to pay for in terms of performance, looks, sound etc.

Whist I do very much like the look of the original style Weber 48 IDA set up I feel that the reward /cost ratio is a bit poor. So until some kind samaritan offers me a good set for a sensible price I will stick with a 650cfm double pumper until I can get my hands on a Weber lookalike fuel injection setup which will give a good performance gain in driveability, power and fuel consumption. The cost will be fair bit more than the Weber 48 IDAs but I feel that this is a better way to spend my shrinking pounds.
Cheers
Mike

 

[Howard Jones]

As the cost for the computers have begun to come down somewhat. What about a FI "weber look" system. Good looks, modern performance, and just a bit more money than a weber setup. If a guy is willing to spend more money that a holley then why not spend a bit more and do a 8 barrel FI system.

 

[Jac Mac]

Ok Mr. Spelling Bee. Do I need to dredge up your misspellings on the forum for everyone to see?:square:

Feel Free, I might have to report you to the ...add mini straight or... for wasting bandwidth though & I wouldnt want it to interfere with the preparations of your race car for the upcoming events..

One important note on the figures from dyno comparisions...... airflow dynamics into the carb/s at speed tend to make them worthless, at a guess 90% of cars out there need work in that specific area of getting good cold air to the carb when at speed, regardless of whether they have Webbers, Kettels, or Holleywoods.

 

[Ron Earp]

airflow dynamics into the carb/s at speed tend to make them worthless, at a guess 90% of cars out there need work in that specific area of getting good cold air to the carb when at speed

I've wondered that about the classic GT40 setup say compared to an open cockpit Can Am car with a relatively unrestricted path for air to get to the carb (sort of, airflow dynamics might not be good).

The GT40 has the carbs under the rear clip which is for sure not doing any favors for supplying cool air. The small air inlet ducts are just that, quite small, while the entire clip area is heated by the power plant. The differences your hand feels in temperature in holding it over the T70 deck engine area and putting your hand into the 40 clip are quite different, the 40s are typically really toasty under there.

As far as wasting my prep time I doubt you could do any better than the damn machine shop that can't read directions for installing a steel dizzy gear at a proper depth and put it on 0.165" too deep. I could have done better in my own shop with caliper and hand drill, that'll learn me.

 

[Jac Mac]

I've wondered that about the classic GT40 setup say compared to an open cockpit Can Am car with a relatively unrestricted path for air to get to the carb (sort of, airflow dynamics might not be good).

The GT40 has the carbs under the rear clip which is for sure not doing any favors for supplying cool air. The small air inlet ducts are just that, quite small, while the entire clip area is heated by the power plant. The differences your hand feels in temperature in holding it over the T70 deck engine area and putting your hand into the 40 clip are quite different, the 40s are typically really toasty under there.

As far as wasting my prep time I doubt you could do any better than the damn machine shop that can't read directions for installing a steel dizzy gear at a proper depth and put it on 0.165" too deep. I could have done better in my own shop with caliper and hand drill, that'll learn me.

I could send you a copy of my new book, its titled D.I.Y. and is sooo simple that you could actually just make a DIY copy for yourself since the title is repeated for each page!, everytime someone on here says to take it to this or that expert, just read the book... just make it as many pages as you think you will need to get the message!!:thumbsup:, should be a big seller in the USA, you can keep any royalties & donate them to GT40's com....:idea:

Safest way to get the dizzy gear at correct height is to have an old 302 or 351 block handy.You should be able to insert a minimum of 0.005" feeler gauge strip between block & gear at the thrust face and also between the thrust collar and dizzy body when the distributor is clamped firmly in place, Fords tend to pull the dist gear down so the thrust washers built into the distributor are non contact in use, it all happens at the gear/block thrust pad ( That is why so many distributors built by aftermarket companys often fail in a Ford, they simply do not understand the application they are designing the distributor for ) --- Chevs tend to push them up ( except in rev rotation mode ) that is why a lot of the current dizzys on the aftermart are a poor choice, when they make them fit a Ford they create a whole host of issues at the same time

 

[Mike Huddart]

A couple of bits of info that might be of interest. I can't remember the source as I have had them a long time and the brain cells aren't what they were.
Holley v Webers

Tested back to back 331cu
Weber outdid Holley through midrange but overtaken by Holley at top
Results Holley left column:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Engine specs:
Stroke 3.25 5.400 rod length, Crower ultra light crank 11.0 CR
Head: Victor JR 301.5/200.5 @.600,Victor Junior manifold
Buddy Rawls flat tappet cam:.592/.544,262/264 @.50
Holley or Weber carbs.

H H W W
RPM Tq Hp Tq Hp
4000 338 257 382 291
4400 371 311 400 335
4800 398 364 449 411
5200 411 407 441 436
5600 413 440 438 467
6000 412 470 434 496
6400 400 488 422 515
6800 401 519 399 517
7000 390 534 386 514

Cheers
Mike

Considering you need a specific type of cam grind to get the best performance out of a set of Webers is there any point in comparing Holley to Weber using the same cam. Either the Holley induction or Webers are going to be compromised somewhere.

Apart from that, the peak HP figure for the Holley is wrong anyway, if the torque is correct at 390, the HP should be 519, very close to the Weber figure. Then again, looking at the supposed spec of the motor, should we believe ANY of the figures.

Mike.

 

[Ron Earp]

I could send you a copy of my new book, its titled D.I.Y. and is sooo simple that you could actually just make a DIY copy for yourself since the title is repeated for each page!

I hear you. I'll send you a book I'm penning titled "Job, Family, & Hobbies - Pick Two". After you read through that then you'll know why I tried to farm it out.

Then again, looking at the supposed spec of the motor, should we believe ANY of the figures.

Mike.

I believe that is the old data that "289" published here a few years back. Some questions were asked of him but answers were never forthcoming. He liked Webbers and I think the outcome was predeterimed.

 

[Seymour Snerd]

...8 chokes in operation [with Webers] as opposed to [with holleys] the 2 (or 4 for double pumper)

Sorry for the thread drift, just want to make a terminology check: I believe the phrase "double pumper" refers to a carburetor with a second accelerator pump for the secondaries. I think what you are referring to is a carburetort with mechanical (as opposed to vacuum-operatored) secondary throttles. If there were no mechanical secondary carburetors with a single accelerator pump it would be a distinction without a difference, but I believe there are such things.

 

[Mike Pass]

Hi Alan,
You are quite right in what you say. On a vacuum operated Holley the secondaries open open at a particular inlet vacuum level. In a double pumper (in addition to the secondaries having their own accelerator pump) the point at which the secondaries open is chosen by the person who sets the carb up in the mechanical linkages on the carb so they could be set to open very early in the throttle opening sequence.
Both versions open the primaries first but you get to choose exactly when the secondaries open on the double pumper mechanical operated secondary version rather than the inlet vacuum deciding when they open. Hence my comment in brackets. Sorry if I created confusion for anyone.
Cheers
Mike

 

[Glenn M]

Weber looks and sound, modern performance. Best of both worlds?

Glenn