Zimmerman / Martin Case, EX-USA Opinions

[John]

ok, so we have white wannabe copper with an ego that exceeds his capabilities, gets out of his car and chases a young black fella , now if I was the young black fella and some dude started chasing me, I like every single living soul would make one of two choices instantly, "Fight or Flee", its the natural response to every single living thing when confronted with danger, so the young fella weighed up the danger and decided to fight, nothing out of the ordinary, I would do exactly the same, or should I say would have done a few years ago, to him all he saw was a white guy coming after him, not a cop, not anyone of any authority, nope just a dickhead on a death wish, so he got what he deserved,
now if we take this whole scenario and change the characters around , and the black kid chases a white guy down the road, cops a flogging, so he pulls out a concealed weapon and shoots the white guy cause he broke his nose, tell me honestly what chances would you give the kid of NOT making death row.
and i'm sorry to say I gents but that's the reality of the situation you have created for yourselves over there,

 

[Pat]

ok, so we have white wannabe copper with an ego that exceeds his capabilities, gets out of his car and chases a young black fella , now if I was the young black fella and some dude started chasing me, I like every single living soul would make one of two choices instantly, "Fight or Flee", its the natural response to every single living thing when confronted with danger, so the young fella weighed up the danger and decided to fight, nothing out of the ordinary, I would do exactly the same, or should I say would have done a few years ago, to him all he saw was a white guy coming after him, not a cop, not anyone of any authority, nope just a dickhead on a death wish, so he got what he deserved,
now if we take this whole scenario and change the characters around , and the black kid chases a white guy down the road, cops a flogging, so he pulls out a concealed weapon and shoots the white guy cause he broke his nose, tell me honestly what chances would you give the kid of NOT making death row.
and i'm sorry to say I gents but that's the reality of the situation you have created for yourselves over there,

John, you are distorting the fact of the case and I suspect you've seen too many movies and bought into too many American stereotypes and media distortions.
In answer to your question, the chance of death row in the case is ZERO regardless of race. (FYI, Mr. Zimmerman whose mother is from Peru, is of mixed race and considers himself Hispanic.)
Here we normally save a death sentence only for the most heinous of crimes. For example, your Mr. Leam Reid found guilty for the 2007 rape and murder of deaf Christchurch woman Emma Agnew and the rape and attempted murder of a Dunedin student a few days later could well merit death row here versus his "23-year minimum non-parole life sentence"-whatever the hell that means.
But then his attorney (a real looker I may add) says "He's the best kisser I've ever kissed" and he was "seriously the best".

If you want outrage with our local justice system. Google the term "Casey Anthony". As with Zimmerman, an outrageously unpopular outcome but one given the limits of the prosecution case, a jury decision that followed the law.

 

[Keith]

Interesting legal points and glad that for once, the legal system worked as it should (doesn't make it right though)

In the interest of accuracy however, and unless things have changed much, Kaspa resides in QLD OZ, not NZ mate....

As the only European responding to this thread (as required by Our Leader) I thought I would point that out..

 

[Keith]

Ooops! A spanner in the machine (wrench for non Europeans)

Double post - sorry.

 

[Pat]

Thanks for the clarification Keith. Mr. Reid was a good example of my point, my poor geography aside.

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

ok, so we have white wannabe copper with an ego that exceeds his capabilities, gets out of his car and chases a young black fella , now if I was the young black fella and some dude started chasing me, I like every single living soul would make one of two choices instantly, "Fight or Flee", its the natural response to every single living thing when confronted with danger, so the young fella weighed up the danger and decided to fight, nothing out of the ordinary, I would do exactly the same, or should I say would have done a few years ago, to him all he saw was a white guy coming after him, not a cop, not anyone of any authority, nope just a dickhead on a death wish, so he got what he deserved,
now if we take this whole scenario and change the characters around , and the black kid chases a white guy down the road, cops a flogging, so he pulls out a concealed weapon and shoots the white guy cause he broke his nose, tell me honestly what chances would you give the kid of NOT making death row.
and i'm sorry to say I gents but that's the reality of the situation you have created for yourselves over there,

If the neighborhood watch person had been Black and the guy in the hoodie Hispanic/White, there would have been minimal local media coverage, no Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton, no rallies, no President saying the kid looked like his mother's side of the family, no FBI Racial/Hate crime investigation, no Holder trying to make points with the Hispanic/White community. Based on the evidence of onsite witnesses and 911 call they would have released the Black neighborhood watch guy and no one outside of a few people in Sanford would have ever heard about it. You're right, we have created a situation.

 

[Keith]

Thanks for the clarification Keith. Mr. Reid was a good example of my point, my poor geography aside.

Indeed..

 

[Keith]

If the neighborhood watch person had been Black and the guy in the hoodie Hispanic/White, there would have been minimal local media coverage, no Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton, no rallies, no President saying the kid looked like his mother's side of the family, no FBI Racial/Hate crime investigation, no Holder trying to make points with the Hispanic/White community

I believe you are correct Al, but what are the odds?

Don't black people become Uncle Toms if they work for the Man?

(Not sure about Hispanic - 90% of Border Patrol USA seem to be from that ethnic background)

Which is one of the most inexplicable examples of doublethink I doubt even Orwell could have imagined.

 

[Joey Dean]

Veek stated the facts as they were stated by the court.

Zimmerman is very guilty of piss poor judgement, but not murder.

When Martin hit him he did not pull his gun. He called for help.
When Martin straddled him he did not pull his gun, he tried to slide away on the grass.
When Martin continued to hit his head into the pavement he pulled his gun and shot him one time.

Zimmerman was going back to his car. The court did not disprove that. Martin did not punch a guy following him and call it a day. He continued to hit Zimmerman repeatedly after he had "made his point". Zimmerman did show initial restraint and attempted to get away. He was not able to disengage himself. Zimmerman shot one shot. He did not empty the gun or do anything past stopping the ass whooping he was taking.

I don't know how to phrase this without taking some abuse from the forum, but will ask it anyway.

If someone was on top of you, regardless of the circumstances of who provoked who into starting it, and you could not get away and you saw no one coming to help you while your head was being repeatedly slammed into the ground I would like to know what you would have done differently?

Sure, most would not have been there to begin with. I said he was stupid. But you are there and it is happening. What would you do?

 

[Keith]

If they are indeed the proven facts then the logic of what you say speaks for itself. Don't expect abuse from this forum anytime soon though..

I believe the difference here in the UK would be that taking a life under almost any circumstances would result in a prosecution and jail time although I believe this situation to be easing now, not in Law, but the interpretation of the existing laws, so that Justice can be better served.

This is what started that process here....

Tony Martin (farmer) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This became a cause celebre in the UK with long reaching implications for home defence using acceptable force.

It enjoyed very wide public and cross party support.

Read it carefully, because it is an eye opener and could never have happened in the USA. This was not an isolated case and aptly demonstrates the major differences between our concepts of harming another individual whatever the causes.

 

[Mark]

As the only European responding to this thread (as required by Our Leader)

Yes Sorry Ron, at this time I have not been able to aquaint myself with the subject, so until then, :lipsrsealed:

 

[Jimmy P]

Living in Florida has meant this case has been part of our/my news each day....morning noon and night. They (the media) even provided "LIVE" court room coverage with "experts" chiming in with opinions literally by the minute as to what was happening. Enormous amounts of money expended by Mega News Networks to get and provide "court room TV junkies" up to the minute coverage with "LIVE" feeds and talking heads posted outside the court house escalating their delivery's to heighten the drama of it all to the viewing public. My question is this: This country is rife with murders that happen each and every day. Crimes of passion, crimes of desparation, crimes of greed etc but how do they (the media circus) pick which one gets this type of MASSIVE expenditure in cash and coverage. Someone, somewhere, picks up something that starts off as a simple murder with some racial overtones. Then and this is an assumption, races up the stairs to his boss and presents his case as to why they need to HYPE this story and BAM before you know it you've got the new "media darling." What amazes me even more is that all the major news networks go with it too. How does this happen? I could understand one network saying "lets go with this one" but all of them. Why this one? As said there are black on white murders/rapes, white on black murder/rapes, hispanic on black/white murder/rapes each day in this country but ALL the media corporations chose this 1 case. Frankly, this baffles me. Why pick this case over all the others and who makes that call?

But more to the topic at hand. In a word this event is "tragic." Mr. Martin is dead at a very young age and Mr. Zimmerman will now live a life of looking over his shoulder to the day he dies. The stalker becomes the stalkee. How ironic is that.

 

[Jeff Young]

If they are indeed the proven facts then the logic of what you say speaks for itself. Don't expect abuse from this forum anytime soon though..

I believe the difference here in the UK would be that taking a life under almost any circumstances would result in a prosecution and jail time although I believe this situation to be easing now, not in Law, but the interpretation of the existing laws, so that Justice can be better served.

This is what started that process here....

Tony Martin (farmer) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This became a cause celebre in the UK with long reaching implications for home defence using acceptable force.

It enjoyed very wide public and cross party support.

Read it carefully, because it is an eye opener and could never have happened in the USA. This was not an isolated case and aptly demonstrates the major differences between our concepts of harming another individual whatever the causes.

That's very interesting. Yes, Martin would never have been charged in teh US.

Markedly different societal views on gun use and self-defense between the US and the UK.

 

[John]

what I cant figure is we only have one side of the story, the only sort of witness was a cell phone conversation telling the boy to run home.
I'm sorry bloke it don't weigh up in my books, i'm no Danny Crane, but from where I sit, it was just an altercation between two blokes that resulted in 2nd degree murder, because he got his nose broken.
and your right , Zimmerman will spend the rest of his life looking over his shoulder, and with good reason, he knows he did wrong and got away with it.

 

[Jim Rosenthal]

Re: Zimmerman / Martin Case, European Opinions

I guess I wonder why rioting, looting, and burning should and does take place. When OJ walked after being clearly guilty of brutally killing a white women, the white population didn't riot, loot, and burn. Does being black allow for a violent protest? Here in Tucson in the 60s there were riots. The police chief cordoned off that part of the city letting no one in or out. When the burning. looting, and rioting were done, he had them clean it up.

I agree completely. Regrettably, we seem to expect this, and we should not have to. I am glad things aren't worse than they have been in the aftermath of the trial and acquittal.

 

[Jim Rosenthal]

What a neighborhood watch volunteer is supposed to do is call the police, which Z did. Unfortunately, he didn't stop there. If he had, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

 

[Ron Earp]

That's very interesting. Yes, Martin would never have been charged in teh US.

That depends on what city/state you're in - up in the NE there is a good chance he'd be charged as some of those states have a flee the domicile statue and don't support self defense and/or gun ownership. And, even in FL, NC, and other "stand your ground" states he might have been charged given the odd circumstances and the prosecutor's disagreement with his recounting.

I believe that in these situations it is best that there only be one side of the story.

 

[Jim Craik]

If the neighborhood watch person had been Black and the guy in the hoodie Hispanic/White, there would have been minimal local media coverage, no Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton, no rallies, no President saying the kid looked like his mother's side of the family, no FBI Racial/Hate crime investigation, no Holder trying to make points with the Hispanic/White community. Based on the evidence of onsite witnesses and 911 call they would have released the Black neighborhood watch guy and no one outside of a few people in Sanford would have ever heard about it. You're right, we have created a situation.

Yes Al if there is one thing that Florida and the South is known for it is their lenient treatment of blacks! They get all the breaks!

This data is for all the US, but you get the idea.

Persons Executed for Interracial Murders in the U.S. Since 1976 The cases represented here are cases of one defendant executed for the murder of one or more victims of one race. Cases involving multiple victims of several different races are not included here.
White Defendant / Black Victim (20)


Black Defendant / White Victim (261)

Executions for Interracial Murders

 

[Jim Craik]

Originally Posted by Al Wohlstrom
I guess I wonder why rioting, looting, and burning should and does take place./QUOTE]

Yes, Rodeny King should have taken his beating like a man! The black community should not have rioted, they should have thanked the police for keeping that "gorilla" in line!

 

[Danimal W]

Originally Posted by Al Wohlstrom
I guess I wonder why rioting, looting, and burning should and does take place./QUOTE]

Yes, Rodeny King should have taken his beating like a man! The black community should not have rioted, they should have thanked the police for keeping that "gorilla" in line!

Mr Craik,

Please enlighten me.

Are you joking or are you saying that the 6 days of widespread looting, assault, arson and murder with estimates of property damages over a billion dollars, with 53 people were killed and over two thousand people were injured who had nothing to do with that trial were justified?