Note to Conservatives

Jim Craik

Lifetime Supporter
You may have missed this news, as Fox does not cover this sort of thing!

Today, GM joined most of the other companys that received bail out funds from the govenment and paid the funds BACK ***IN FULL WITH INTEREST***

To Limbaugh, Hannity and some people on this form who said this was a Socialist take over of US business I will wait for you to admit you were wrong! Although I will not hold by breath!
 

Ron Earp

Admin
Re: Note to Concervatives

Well....sort of they paid back the loans but they were not paid back in full.

GM CEO: "We Paid 'Em Back!"

GM pays back government loans from US, Canada - Yahoo! News

They received $50 billion. They paid back the remaining $5.8B that was not converted into government owned stock in the company.

Now, if you accept that the government should own part of GM then yes, they paid back their loan. If you do not accept that the government should own part of GM, well, then GM still hasn't done too well by the US tax payer.
 
Re: Note to Concervatives

Jim,

I like the enthusiasm but it does not tell the whole story. GM received $52 billion from the U.S. government and $9.5 billion from the Canadian and Ontario governments.

During the bankruptcy the U.S. government reduced the loan portion to $6.7 billion and converted the rest to company stock, while the Canadian governments held $1.4 billion in loans.

So GM did pay back the loan portion in full with interest but for the governments to be made whole; GM still needs to have an public stock offering of the remaining $45.3 billion to the U.S. government and $8.1 billion to Canada. That is a ton of stock and (like CITI) will take a while to sell in the open market.

While I am elated they did repay the loan back AND that GM looks to be on a good track, there is still more work to be done.

Kevin
 
Re: Note to Concervatives

Funny thing is, there are a lot of non-conservatives out there (including me) that did not agree with any bailouts or financial help (especially to the banks.)
 

Jim Craik

Lifetime Supporter
Re: Note to Concervatives

Funny thing is, there are a lot of non-conservatives out there (including me) that did not agree with any bailouts or financial help (especially to the banks.)<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
By Chris P

Sure isn't and I suppose count me as one of those folks that think that they shouldn't have ever stuck their thumb in the pie.<!-- google_ad_section_end --> <!-- google_ad_section_start(weight=ignore) -->
By Ron Earp

I think you both should look up President Hoover's handeling of the stock market crisis in 1929, he refused to stick his thumb in the pie and the banking industry failed followed closely by the entire economy! Although all options are not great, all thing considered, I much prefer the current Presidents responce to the Republican responce in 1929.

Some people learn from the past and some dont.

I don't know about you but selling apples and pencils on street corners it not my idea of a great job!
 
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Pete

Lifetime Supporter
Re: Note to Concervatives

Since the current president seems to be emulating Roosevelt we may well be selling apples and pencils on street corners. I'm just sayin....
 
Re: Note to Concervatives

Actually, what caused the depression following the crash of '29 were the protectionist policies instituted by the government.

As for GM, don't forget the Obama gift to the UAW. Why do you think the autoworkers were cheering? They finally have a real stake in the company...maybe the quality of work will improve?

Funny how the unions were loath to budge at all on compensation until they owned the company...Correct me if I'm wrong, but new heirs don't get anything like the compensation package the "owners" get. Funny how it always works out that way.
 
Re: Note to Concervatives

The Protectionist Temptation: Lessons from the Great Depression

By Barry Eichengreen and Douglas Irwin|Mar 17, 2009, 5:08 PM|Author's Website

What do we know about the spread of protectionism during the Great Depression and what are the implications for today’s crisis? This column says the lesson is that countries should coordinate their fiscal and monetary measures. If some do and some don’t, the trade policy consequences could once again be most unfortunate.
The Great Depression of the 1930s was marked by a severe outbreak of protectionism. Many fear that, unless policymakers are on guard, protectionist pressures could once again spin out of control. What do we know about the spread of protectionism then, and what are the implications for today?
While many aspects of the Great Depression continue to be debated, there is all-but-universal agreement that the adoption of restrictive trade policies was destructive and counterproductive and that similarly succumbing to protectionism in our current slump should be avoided at all cost. Lacking other instruments with which to support economic activity, governments erected tariff and nontariff barriers to trade in a desperate effort to direct spending to merchandise produced at home rather than abroad. But with other governments responding in kind, the distribution of demand across countries remained unchanged at the end of this round of global tariff hikes. The main effect was to destroy trade which, despite the economic recovery in most countries after 1933, failed to reach its 1929 peak, as measured by volume, by the end of the decade (Figure 1). The benefits of comparative advantage were lost. Recrimination over beggar-thy-neighbour trade policies made it more difficult to agree on other measures to halt the slump.
Figure 1. World trade and production, 1926-1938
image58.png
The impression one gleans from both contemporary and modern accounts is that trade policy was thrown into complete chaos, with every country scrambling to impose higher barriers. But, in fact, this was not exactly the case (Eichengreen and Irwin, forthcoming). Although recourse to trade restrictions was widespread, there was considerable variation in how far countries moved in this direction. Figure 2 illustrates this for tariffs. Tariff rates rose sharply in some countries but not others. The history of the 1930s would have been very different had other countries responded in the manner of, say, Denmark, Sweden and Japan. It is important to understand why they did not.
Figure 2. Average tariff on imports, 1928-1938, percentage
image59.png
The answer, in a nutshell, is the exchange rate regime and the policies associated with it. Countries that remained on the gold standard, keeping their currencies fixed against gold, were more inclined to impose trade restrictions. With other countries devaluing and gaining competitiveness at their expense, they adopted restrictive policies to strengthen the balance of payments and fend off gold losses. Lacking other instruments with which to address the deepening slump, they used tariffs and similar measures to shift demand toward domestic production and thereby stem the rise in unemployment.
In contrast, countries abandoning the gold standard and allowing their currencies to depreciate saw their balances of payments strengthen. They gained gold rather than losing it. As importantly, they now had other instruments with which to address the unemployment problem. Cutting the currency loose from gold freed up monetary policy. Without a gold parity to defend, interest rates could be cut, and central banks No longer bound by the gold standard rules could act as lenders of last resort. They now possessed other tools with which to ameliorate the Depression. These worked, as shown in Figure 3. As a result, governments were not forced to resort to trade protection.
Figure 3. Change in industrial production, by country group
image60.png
This relationship is quite general, as we show in Figure 4. It also carries over to non-tariff barriers to trade such as exchange controls and import quotas.
Figure 4. Exchange rate depreciation and the change in import tariffs, 1929-1935
image61.png
This finding has important implications for policy makers responding to the Great Recession of 2009. The message for today would appear to be “to avoid protectionism, stimulate.” But how? In the 1930s, stimulus meant monetary stimulus. The case for fiscal stimulus was neither well understood nor generally accepted. Monetary stimulus benefited the initiating country but had a negative impact on its trading partners, as shown by Eichengreen and Sachs (1985). The positive impact on its neighbours of the faster growth induced by the shift to “cheap money” was dominated by the negative impact of the tendency for its currency to depreciate when it cut interest rates. Thus, stimulus in one country increased the pressure for its neighbours to respond in protectionist fashion.
Today the problem is different because the policy instruments are different. In addition to monetary stimulus, countries are applying fiscal stimulus to counter the Great Recession. Fiscal stimulus in one country benefits its neighbours as well. The direct impact through faster growth and more import demand is positive, while the indirect impact via upward pressure on world interest rates that crowd out investment at home and abroad is negligible under current conditions. When a country applies fiscal stimulus, other countries are able to export more to it, so they have no reason to respond in a protectionist fashion.
The problem, to the contrary, is that the country applying the stimulus worries that benefits will spill out to its free-riding neighbours. Fiscal stimulus is not costless – it means incurring public debt that will have to be serviced by the children and grandchildren of the citizens of the country initiating the policy. Insofar as more spending includes more spending on imports, there is the temptation for that country to resort to “Buy America” provisions and their foreign equivalents. The protectionist danger is still there, in other words but, insofar as the policy response to this slump is fiscal rather than just monetary, it is the active country, not the passive one, that is subject to the temptation.
But if the details of the problem are different, the solution is the same. Now, as in the 1930s, countries need to coordinate their fiscal and monetary measures. If some do and some don’t, the trade policy consequences could again be most unfortunate.

voxeu_org.jpg


Perhaps overkill?? :)
 
Re: Note to Concervatives

You may have missed this news, as Fox does not cover this sort of thing!

Today, GM joined most of the other companys that received bail out funds from the govenment and paid the funds BACK ***IN FULL WITH INTEREST***

To Limbaugh, Hannity and some people on this form who said this was a Socialist take over of US business I will wait for you to admit you were wrong! Although I will not hold by breath!

GO James,

Even if JM pays back the 45 and the 8 Billion to US and Canada, there will be ANGER over the .3 and the .1 that was not paid back.

I am disappointed in "Comrade Obama". I was hoping to see the flag changed,,,50 Hammer & Cycles instead of those stars. BUT,,,,,there is still time for that.
Assuming the loony Nazis don't hyperventilate and pass out drinking their urine laced tea.
 
Re: Note to Concervatives

GM, from my sources, will try to float the company before year's end. They better start making money or no one buys into it.
 

Ron Earp

Admin
Re: Note to Concervatives

I don't know about you but selling apples and pencils on street corners it not my idea of a great job!

I thought the original premise of the post was a "Note to conservatives" that "GM had paid the government back with interest", which is clearly not the case.
 
Re: Note to Concervatives

I think you both should look up President Hoover's handeling of the stock market crisis in 1929, he refused to stick his thumb in the pie and the banking industry failed followed closely by the entire economy! Although all options are not great, all thing considered, I much prefer the current Presidents responce to the Republican responce in 1929.

Some people learn from the past and some dont.

I will point out that the 2008 financial bailout that averted a meltdown of the financial system was put in place by a Republican administration. The current occupant of the White House did nothing other than keep his mouth shut with regard to that program. (I will concede that keeping his mouth shut was far more constructive than what his rival for the position did instead.)
 

Jim Craik

Lifetime Supporter
Re: Note to Concervatives

Peter,

Of course you are right. Although Obama did support the bailout, but you have to admit that Limbaugh, Hannity and tea baggers have been blaming this all on Obama because their constituents will belive anything they say.

Ron

The original premise of this post was to try and show the Obama haters and the tea baggers that this action by our govenment was not some clever plot to ruin our country but an attempt to advert a much worse economic problem. If the banks and large industry was allowed to fail with the thousands/millions of lost jobs we would not be looking at the reasonalby quick recovery we are seeing.
 

Jim Craik

Lifetime Supporter
Re: Note to Concervatives

Since the current president seems to be emulating Roosevelt we may well be selling apples and pencils on street corners. I'm just sayin....<!-- google_ad_section_end -->

Pete,

The depression came towards the end of three Repubilican Administrations, Harding, Coolidge and Hoover, they got us into the depression, it was Roosevelt (with help for the war) who got us out.
 
Re: Note to Concervatives

It was Roosevelt's initiation and implementation of the New Deal that kept the Great Depression going longer than it would have, had it been allowed to self-adjust.

Then, as now, the financial markets were tied together...New York, London, Frankfurt, Paris...when they were down, we were down...when their markets started to correct, ours dragged them back as fast as they could grow.

I am an independent, I don't vote Republican. But don't try to tell me how wonderful Democrat policy decisions are for this country. American history shows that the greatest losses in personal freedoms have always occurred during the tenure of a Democrat president.

Pete,

The depression came towards the end of three Repubilican Administrations, Harding, Coolidge and Hoover, they got us into the depression, it was Roosevelt (with help for the war) who got us out.
 
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