Possible Suspension Arm Failure, Racing - Tornado GT40
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Mark,
Yes I do mean Andy at Tornado.
Thanks,
Gord Zonailo
GordsFord
Yes I do mean Andy at Tornado.
Thanks,
Gord Zonailo
GordsFord
Guys,
here is the promised pic taken from the left arm.
As you can see it is also bend.
This is not because of any over stressing while racing, this is because the material is to weak and was bended over time.
It is not a good pic as we where already packing the stuff to send it for inspection and making new ones by another vendor ..
Unfortunately my Job is eating me up at the moment and I am traveling like hell across Germany, I will come back to you all over the weekend with a calculation example and pic why the design is seriously wrong
However, I received a lot of private mails about this topic and a lot support and
encouragement about the threat. Thx a lot to all for this...very much appreciated
Cheers
(C)arlos
here is the promised pic taken from the left arm.
As you can see it is also bend.
This is not because of any over stressing while racing, this is because the material is to weak and was bended over time.
It is not a good pic as we where already packing the stuff to send it for inspection and making new ones by another vendor ..
Unfortunately my Job is eating me up at the moment and I am traveling like hell across Germany, I will come back to you all over the weekend with a calculation example and pic why the design is seriously wrong
However, I received a lot of private mails about this topic and a lot support and
encouragement about the threat. Thx a lot to all for this...very much appreciated
Cheers
(C)arlos
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Mark, thanks for noticing my mistake in my post #80. It was a late night seniors moment I guess!
I want to make it clear to all members that my post #80 was related to Tornado Sports Cars and not at all to Southern GT.
I have sent a message to Andy at Tornado with a summary of my calculations, conclusions and recommendations. None of my analysis or comments are concerning the geometry of their revised design of the front suspension as shown on the current web site, and relate only to the lower control arms as shown by Carlos.
Gord Zonailo
GordsFord Performance Engineering
I want to make it clear to all members that my post #80 was related to Tornado Sports Cars and not at all to Southern GT.
I have sent a message to Andy at Tornado with a summary of my calculations, conclusions and recommendations. None of my analysis or comments are concerning the geometry of their revised design of the front suspension as shown on the current web site, and relate only to the lower control arms as shown by Carlos.
Gord Zonailo
GordsFord Performance Engineering
Frank
It looks like after receiving the wishbone that you have bent the arm more yourself.
Andy
It looks like after receiving the wishbone that you have bent the arm more yourself.
Andy
Andy, as Carlos will confirm, I dont have it and never seen it, its just photographic forwarded information!
Why are you posting then??
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Paul
Same question to you??
Andy
Same question to you??
Andy
Yes, let me explain:
The image Frank posted looks[-]very similar[/-] the same as images four and five of post #1, if I had added the image Frank posted for comparison maybe that would have explained my point better...
I have now edited my OP for clarity.
Paul
Jac Mac
As Carlos seems reluctant I think the attached picture shows the information you are looking for.
The shock length has been adjusted to the fitted length at standard ride height.
The bottom spring seat has been screwed up the same number of turns as on the picture from Carlos.
The spring is the standard item. As you can see it is normally fitted with pre load with the bottom spring seat at or near the bottom of the shock..
The distance between the spring seats is just 5 1/4" with the bottom seat screwed up to that position.
The actual shocks we use have a shorter body length and rubber bump stops fitted.
To compress that spring to 5.25" or shorter as would happen during wheel bump would without doubt result in a coil bound situation resulting in damage to the wishbone and/or chassis.
This is why there is a warning in the manual.
The unknowing do not realise how critical shock length, spring length, bump stops and pre load are in suspension control and that damage can ocurr if all of these elements are not correct.
We have still not been contacted directly by either Carlos or the owner of the vehicle to discuss this matter directly.
Thanks
Andy
As Carlos seems reluctant I think the attached picture shows the information you are looking for.
The shock length has been adjusted to the fitted length at standard ride height.
The bottom spring seat has been screwed up the same number of turns as on the picture from Carlos.
The spring is the standard item. As you can see it is normally fitted with pre load with the bottom spring seat at or near the bottom of the shock..
The distance between the spring seats is just 5 1/4" with the bottom seat screwed up to that position.
The actual shocks we use have a shorter body length and rubber bump stops fitted.
To compress that spring to 5.25" or shorter as would happen during wheel bump would without doubt result in a coil bound situation resulting in damage to the wishbone and/or chassis.
This is why there is a warning in the manual.
The unknowing do not realise how critical shock length, spring length, bump stops and pre load are in suspension control and that damage can ocurr if all of these elements are not correct.
We have still not been contacted directly by either Carlos or the owner of the vehicle to discuss this matter directly.
Thanks
Andy
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Purely as an uninterested party, I would like to say that, this thread ought to be a great opportunity to highlight a 'possible' issue and for owners and the manufacturer to engage in open and positive dialogue, in pursuit of a solution, 'if' it becomes apparant that the issue is in fact 'real'.
If this is found to be a 'real' issue, then the manufacturer has 1000% more to gain by embracing a solution in an open arena, than they do by solving it quietly with just this one owner.
If anyone feels it necessary to exagerate the fault, then they stand to lose an aweful amount of respect in this community and I personally doubt that Frank would even care enough to bother. Equally, if the manufacturer feels it appropriate to make such allegations of another, then that manufacturer has the potential to destroy their image in this very small world of GT40s, should the allegation be deemed by all to be false.
Now, carry on and solve the problem, or confirm catagorically that there isn't one, Gentlemen.
If this is found to be a 'real' issue, then the manufacturer has 1000% more to gain by embracing a solution in an open arena, than they do by solving it quietly with just this one owner.
If anyone feels it necessary to exagerate the fault, then they stand to lose an aweful amount of respect in this community and I personally doubt that Frank would even care enough to bother. Equally, if the manufacturer feels it appropriate to make such allegations of another, then that manufacturer has the potential to destroy their image in this very small world of GT40s, should the allegation be deemed by all to be false.
Now, carry on and solve the problem, or confirm catagorically that there isn't one, Gentlemen.
Andy,
What is the spring rate that was used for the standard coil overs supplied for the year and model that Carlos had and sold and is the same as in your
photo? Do you have the extended length and coil bind length?
Thanks,
Gord
GordsFord Performance Engineering
What is the spring rate that was used for the standard coil overs supplied for the year and model that Carlos had and sold and is the same as in your
photo? Do you have the extended length and coil bind length?
Thanks,
Gord
GordsFord Performance Engineering
Tim Kay
Lifetime Supporter
^ Great question, key to resolve this issue me thinks.
Having read all these posts Andy Sheldon is right in what he says is causing the bent arm, re: shocks. Maybe for out and out racing with the much higher loads that are generated a different solution is required, which he has said he offers. Also i see no probs pointing out a possible prob on the forum but speaking to the manufacture first would have been the correct corse of action to take ? It may be worth pointing out that spring on car suspension should not be preloaded if you require a stiffer spring doing this will not give you one !! buy a stiffer spring !! winding it up just gives you less active coils to use !! As owners of these fabulous cars we should be using this forum to help each other not bitch about each other ? just my view
Gord
Spring lengths and rates are not relevant.
You can clearly see in the picture that the correct spring will not fit between the shock seats without being coil bound when adjusted as in the picture from Carlos.
Thanks
Andy
Spring lengths and rates are not relevant.
You can clearly see in the picture that the correct spring will not fit between the shock seats without being coil bound when adjusted as in the picture from Carlos.
Thanks
Andy
This stuff happens all the time with kit cars.....from every manufacturer. The early CAVs had front hubs that were fine, but not perfect.....100% A OK for street use and most anything most owners are doing, but probably not quite up to the task of hard core track time. There were one or two failures where there was something that prompted it, such as hitting a curb. Not a big deal. Over time there was an upgrade (fab'd steel instead of cash alu) and now you can go beat the crap out of your front hubs on any track in the world. Not a big deal. Sounds like Andy is attempting to make it right with the customer, and no doubt will do so, so heck, all good. Fabricating up some new wishbones is an easy task for the skilled folks at Tornado.
I realize we're talking about suspension here, but it shouldn't be a big deal. Once, I had a wire wheel come right off the front of my brother's MGB while doing about 60mph down a back road...the wheel went into a farmer's field, rolling almost all the way across the field. I went and retrieved the wheel, found a spare spinner in the trunk with the spare tire, put the wheel back on, banged the spinner tight with a rock, and off I went.
We're not driving Toyota Camry's and Chevy trucks here, there's going to be a bit of evolution in design with these cars....
I realize we're talking about suspension here, but it shouldn't be a big deal. Once, I had a wire wheel come right off the front of my brother's MGB while doing about 60mph down a back road...the wheel went into a farmer's field, rolling almost all the way across the field. I went and retrieved the wheel, found a spare spinner in the trunk with the spare tire, put the wheel back on, banged the spinner tight with a rock, and off I went.
We're not driving Toyota Camry's and Chevy trucks here, there's going to be a bit of evolution in design with these cars....
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