Possible Suspension Arm Failure, Racing - Tornado GT40

[(C)arlos]

Re: This happens to a Tornado if you really race it

These are the original Tornado bolts, and the car is used as a frequent driver.
Rusty, this is your opinion.
Hammer around a place that even would break a hammer....a yes sorry I forgot you have seen and driven the Nuerburgring so many times
Wear and tear after 10.000 km ..sorry then the parts are for a trailer queen and not for a car that is driven frequently...

Sorry I can not treat that post serious ....

Looking at pictures of that chassis I can see rusty bolts and nuts. Is that good for track performance, or does that reflect the standard to which your friend keeps his cars??

To be honest, if you hammer around a place like that even a Hummer would break. I have had many suspension parts fail on the road on standard road cars in the past 45 years, but I do not recall anyone telling me it "might" happen or my filing cabinet full of copies of my letters to the national press warning of imminent death from such a product.

"Wear and Tear" does that.

If I were to "race" any vehicle ever again, especially where there excessive braking forces and violent camber changes and the car originally "came in a box" I am damned sure that regular crack testing and beefing up of standard suspension and brake parts would be the standard maintenance regime.

 

[(C)arlos]

Re: This happens to a Tornado if you really race it

Andy ...

the kit is from 2007 so according to your comment I should consider this as a very old car ?
Where does a rose joint change anything on the geometry ?

It is the point where the coilover mounting is placed, this is wrong by design.

I have not seen anyone posting here or in previous threats about problems with other vendors.

I can not find one of your below statements on your homepage to inform prospects/owners about the right use of the car.

Cheers
(C)arlos

The standard wishbones are for general road use and light track use. They are not intended for competition use.

For hard track use we have always offered a suspension upgrade which includes fully rose jointed suspension.

The standard wishbones have been upgraded sometime ago but as we have been manufacturing these cars for 23 years there are some very old cars out there.

I am sure other manufacturers will face similar problems when they have been producing kits for such a long period of time.

Thanks

Andy

 

[(C)arlos]

Re: This happens to a Tornado if you really race it

Ohhh and one more Andy

quote
"I am sure other manufacturers will face similar problems when they have been producing kits for such a long period of time."

Is that your excuse ?

cheers
(C)arlos

 

[Andy Green]

Re: This happens to a Tornado if you really race it

Andy (Sheldon),

You’d previously stated that all the known failures were on vehicles 10-15 years old (see link below), but the vehicle in question was manufactured 2007, so at the worst only 5 years old. So is what you’re saying that even with your new & improved wishbones are now only suitable for road & light track use.

It would be also extremely useful to know when the new parts were introduced so those of us with older cars know if they are effected

http://www.gt40s.com/forum/gt40-tec...ls/35173-new-front-suspension.html#post358170

Regards
Andy

 

[(C)arlos]

Re: This happens to a Tornado if you really race it

Guys I have to say something..

I enjoy the forum so much it is full of inspiration and perhaps the best source if you want to build a replica. Many guys are doing an outstanding job here assembling their cars. Far better from what I achieve at the moment....no doubts here.

But...
I really dislike stupid comments like
"This racetrack even breaks a humer"
"Oh I see a rusty bolt....is that the standard"
Or other stupid stuff...
Post comments
- about the ring, if you have been there at least once in your life and driven it
- post comments about rusty bolts if this is the part that failed
- post comments which deal with the facts and not assumptions, or just to show you can actually post ...


This threat was not intent to blame Tornado or throw dirt to this company. They are far to long in business, so they must have made something right ....I do not always agree with Andy that is an open secret, but I don't insult, discriminate or try to defame his business....Not my intention ...

I achieved what I wanted to achieve, a heads up and warning ....I did not know this and I am following the forum since years...

If Andy can give us a statement what he did to upgrade parts (pics are welcome) and how he wants to handle this for customers that have relatively new cars ( I enclose a 2007 chassis absolutely to this ) I am perfectly fine with this.
If Andy wants to discuss this on a one2one conversation over the phone, to get more information how this did happen, he knows my number.

Now, it is Andy's chance to explain this on a professional level, without receiving stupid comments on this or receiving unprofessional responses, for being honest and open to us..

Shit happens, but you should not let it hit the fan (if possible)...
I tried to be fair, if that was not clear in my comments, take my apologises, but I also want to satisfy my "customer/friend" with an appropriate answer and solution...

Cheers
(C)arlos

 

[Dave P]

Re: This happens to a Tornado if you really race it

(C)arlos :

I stand by my statement. Racing is a dangerous activity each racer has the responsibility to make sure his equipment is safe for his intended use. How do we know your driver just did not hit a curb at some point causing a weakened control arm.

 

[Jac Mac]

Re: This happens to a Tornado if you really race it

I dont have a horse in this race...but... I have seen many pics of cars negotiating the 'carousel' ....due to the high downforce induced due to the banking I think that in many cars the springs will 'bottom out'... now in the case of the Tornado with coil overs that would mean the point loading on the wishbone would far exceed any limits it was designed for, something has to give once the spring is coil bound or the shock fully compressed, an observant mechanic/driver would normally notice something along those lines, sometimes you have to look beyond the actual failure to find the cause..

 

[(C)arlos]

Re: This happens to a Tornado if you really race it

Dave,
I understand where you are coming from and accept you objection.
Please use maps.google.com and search for the ring ....look at the curve I mentioned and you understand why you can't hit a curb there ...hmmmm at least if you drive in the right direction, and on the correct lane
Now you could say it might happened in a different curve, but I say, if you hit a curb, the control arms breaks and does not bend...because the force is applied in a fraction of a second where downforce is growing over time ....but this is just an assumption ...

Beside this, you could say, Carlos you have not been there, fair enough, but I know the guy for quite some time and he is a respected driver, so I trust him.

 

[(C)arlos]

Re: This happens to a Tornado if you really race it

Jac Mac, I agree to a certain extend, but it did happen to other people on other tracks....so I would not blame the carousel for it ...and it was at the beginning , on the first meters, not at the end ...
Also it is easy to apply the same downforce on other corners, where the car takes a nose dive and you break hard, the force is the same no matter if it comes from just from downforce because of the curve, or curve + breaking ....am I wrong ?

I dont have a horse in this race...but... I have seen many pics of cars negotiating the 'carousel' ....due to the high downforce induced due to the banking I think that in many cars the springs will 'bottom out'... now in the case of the Tornado with coil overs that would mean the point loading on the wishbone would far exceed any limits it was designed for, something has to give once the spring is coil bound or the shock fully compressed, an observant mechanic/driver would normally notice something along those lines, sometimes you have to look beyond the actual failure to find the cause..

 

[(C)arlos]

Re: This happens to a Tornado if you really race it

Actually a very good question !

Andy (Sheldon),

You’d previously stated that all the known failures were on vehicles 10-15 years old (see link below), but the vehicle in question was manufactured 2007, so at the worst only 5 years old. So is what you’re saying that even with your new & improved wishbones are now only suitable for road & light track use.

It would be also extremely useful to know when the new parts were introduced so those of us with older cars know if they are effected

http://www.gt40s.com/forum/gt40-tec...ls/35173-new-front-suspension.html#post358170

Regards
Andy

 

[Dave P]

Re: This happens to a Tornado if you really race it

Carlos. I am well aware of the corner you are talking about. My point is that unless you have been with that car 24 hours a day, 7 days a week 365 days a year since you sold the car. You truly do not know if something happened to compromise the integrity of that part.

Andy has a long history of producing his product and has been nothing more than helpful to me when I asked him questions.

Coming on here sounding upset and making the statements you started with leaves one with questions of why. Racing here in the states generally makes any warranty issues null and void. Hence every racing parts companies have huge disclaimers about racing use.

 

[Frank Catt]

Re: This happens to a Tornado if you really race it

You will see in the attached picture that the alternative lower wishbone unit ( not a Tornado product ) carries the weight of the car as close as is physically possible to the outer upright swivel joint, which prevents any bending moments or stress in the wishbone arms, Frank

 

[(C)arlos]

Re: This happens to a Tornado if you really race it

That looks perfect !

You will see in the attached picture that the alternative lower wishbone unit ( not a Tornado product ) carries the weight of the car as close as is physically possible to the outer upright swivel joint, which prevents any bending moments or stress in the wishbone arms, Frank

 

Re: This happens to a Tornado if you really race it

Tell me Andy, Exactly, Exactly How much extra would an upgraded suspension be over the normal everyday use type ?

And for that cost why not just incorporate this into the kit price.
As now lots of people ARE concerned that they could fail and die in one of your cars if they do a track day. As people get used to the cars the faster they go.
Or maybe just omit the V8 from engine options and fit fiat 850 engines.

Interested in that extra cost Andy ?
And boy what a can of worms that's been opened

 

[Keith]

Re: This happens to a Tornado if you really race it

Hammer around a place that even would break a hammer....a yes sorry I forgot you have seen and driven the Nuerburgring so many times

Sorry I can not treat that post serious ....

Hummer Carlos, Hummer as in off road 4x4.

As for Nuburgring, is that sarcasm mate? You think this why exactly?

Carlos, reread what I said. I am not able to judge whether or not the part was fit for purpose as I have no experience of Tornado product, but I did race for a number of years in a purpose built race car and fully realise the stresses and strains put on even heavy duty components especially on a wild track like Nurburgring. Hell, I broke those kind of parts that were manufactured by Roger Penske on any type of steep banking or excessive positive camber corners!

Presumably your friend did not dawdle around the 'Ring and wanted perhaps to do sub 10 second. To do that in what essentially is a 'car in a box' with 10,000 kms on it and expect any part NOT to fail, is a leap of faith that makes a Mars journey look like a weekend trip to Paris.

To suggest otherwise (not withstanding that there are special parts available) is to perhaps ask Ford and FAV how come it took 4 years to win at Le Mans without breaking almost everything in essentially brand new cars that were designed and built for the purpose.

I trust you realise what I am trying to get across here. Do not take for granted ANY aftermarket part for a racing purpose without having it properly checked by engineers. If it is not fit for purpose, throw it back.

 

[Tim Kay]

Re: This happens to a Tornado if you really race it

Thanks for posting Carlos, from your original post the obvious concern is first and foremost ‘safety’. No one here wants a potentially serious result when what we do here is primarily for the sake of fun and enjoyment. Carlos’ post is welcome, warranted and appreciated.

Notice should be given to owners of any\all cars that develop or have inherent issues, especially if issues can result in compromising safety. And if necessary those issues should be reiterated by members and manufacturers so new members\owners can be made aware.

In my opinion, the standard issued Tornado front lower A-arms are not suitable for even aggressive street driving. My opinion is based on two sets supplied by Tornado. First set were on the car when I took ownership and bent within the first 2000 street miles (and one track day). I have no idea if they had been replaced prior to my ownership and if not, to Tornado’s credit, they held up for a reasonable amount of time. The second set bent within the first 500 street miles. Again to Tornado's credit, I installed new QA1 struts and stiff springs which may exceed Tornado's intended design.

This isn’t a dig on Tornado nor intended to be by the original post but it is an issue that repeatedly rears it’s head and seeing that it can be safety related it needs an emphasis on how to correct it either through something more substantial offered by Tornado or alternative sources.

Tim

 

[Larry L.]

Re: This happens to a Tornado if you really race it

Is this isue unique to Tornado? Or have there been similar incidents involving the corresponding parts found on SPFs, CAVs, RCRs, etc.?

 

[Malcolm]

Re: This happens to a Tornado if you really race it

Nine GTDs went to the ring in 1994, I was there and still have mine and it was a fun day or two. No failures though. Couple of spinners mind! Even got below 10 minute laps in a standard GTD as mine was way back then. Carousel is an awwesome corner and really hammers the suspension so if anything is to fail then it is one of the likely corners. How many ordinary road cars go round that track during the course of a year? Many thousands.

This kind of post is a safety issue and in previous discussions it was a general consensus that if you see a safety problem then for the sake of your fellow forum member it is worth pointing it out.

 

[(C)arlos]

Re: This happens to a Tornado if you really race it

Andy (Tornado) with each and every hour passing by not providing a solution for all of us, you loose more and more credit !

 

[TrevS]

Re: This happens to a Tornado if you really race it

Hi all

I am currently building my Tornado with the standard suspension and it's the one area of the car that really worries me. I've had phone calls from several people about known failures and seen several threads about similar incidents and it puts real doubt in my mind about the safety of the car when your hear and see other peoples failures.

I spoke to Frank Catt and Southern GT a little while ago and we talked about them taking my car and looking at the suspension and then upgrading any potential weak spots and setting everything up. It would certainly put my mind at ease but the problem I have with this is that I've already paid out for the suspension on my car and can't really afford the time or money to replace everything so I've continued to use the standard suspension setup to get the car on the road and then I can look at any upgrades.

I know that suspension is a complicated beast and there might not be any quick fix for this but I would like the option to upgrade to strengthened wishbones if the standard ones are not suitable for fast road driving and the odd track day. If Tornado offers this then great but as Keith said should this not be a standard part as these are high performance cars?

Finally I'd just like to chip in and say that I've had my own issues with my Tornado over the past few years but Andy and Scott have always been extremely helpful and have always resolved any issues and I am sure if that if this is a wider issue then Andy will make the relevant improvements.