Israel and Gaza?

[Jim Rosenthal]

I have to side with Pete on this one (at least I think I am siding with Pete) The world seems to have way more than its share of extremist and violent Muslims- or, more accurately, criminal gangs like the ISIS and Boko Haram. I think perhaps regarding these groups as religious fanatics may not be accurate- of course they cite religion in what they do but what they REALLY do is murder, extortion, robbery, and rape just like all criminal gangs. They are on a par with the North Koreans- the only difference is that the NKs have been at it longer and have consolidated their power in a specific geographic area. Even Al Qaeda has disowned ISIS- and AQ are not a virtuous organization to say the least. I think ISIS and BK are criminal enterprises operating under the mantle of religion, because it suits them to do it, but they are not a religious organization; they are a bunch of thugs attempting to impose a criminal dictatorship in their countries.

 

[Keith]

Few people across the pond realise that much of their hard earned donations to Noraid were in fact funding a largely criminal organisation known as the IRA. In fact both opposing paramilitaries in Northern Ireland had their roots in drug dealing, kidnapping, murder and extortion under the guise of "dissident Republicans" or "dissident Loyalists".

Criminal scum the lot of them...

 

[Pat]

No I don't see Islam as a threat.

Terrorists and extremists on the other hand are a different matter, (that's why I don't judge all Catholics on a basis of a few IRA supporters). They are a threat but they do not frighten me.

The majority of religions are not evil the way some men interpret them are.

I have it on excellent authority that Catholic doctrine specifically frowns heavily upon murder, even IRA ones. On the other hand, the Quran provides interesting and very contrasting views concerning non-believers as the Yazidi Kurds have recently discovered.
Some take those views to extreme. Of the 1.2-1.8 billion Muslims, a worldwide Pew Research study indicated that 72% indicated suicide bombing or other forms of violence against civilians in the name of Islam are never justified. Whew, but what about the other 28%?
Intelligence estimates indicated while the vast majority of Muslims are peaceful people, 15-15% are aligned with jihadist philosophy. That comes out to be 180-300 million people, as a minimum, three times the population of the UK.
In that regard, there is estimated to be up to 400 British fighters in the ranks of the Islamic State militant group – also known as ISIS. One of them, Abdul Waheed Majid was a suspected suicide bomber in Syria. Another, believed to be a Londoner, referred to as John, was recently videotaped sawing the head off a U.S. reporter. A former MI6 counter-terrorism head, Richard Barrett, said in an interview during June 2014 that “hundreds of veteran fighters from Syria and Iraq were already back in Britain” and warned that the UK security forces face an “impossible” task keeping track of them all. It is currently estimated that about 250 UK fighters have returned from Syria and according to the UK government 65 people have been arrested during the preceding 18 months for "Syrian jihadist related activities".Some estimates put the number of Western Muslims joining ISIS in Syria and Iraq up to 3,000.
As a reminder, it took 19 to kill 3,000 on 9/11.

But I'm glad your not frightened. It scares the crap out of me.

Your provide an interesting moral equivalence of IRA/Catholics and Jihadist/Muslims though. I guess we should at this point ruminate about the atrocities of the Thirty Years War and Oliver Cromwell's fund raising overseas. It makes as much sense...

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

There were at least 1.6 billion Muslims worldwide as of 2010. The Muslim site below says there are 2.08 billion as of 2014. Estimates are that between 17% and 25% are radical fundamentalist, lets say a low end, 15%. That's 300 million radicals worldwide or the population of the US. It's 3.75 times the population of England (57 million) and Australia (23 million) combined. Think about that! If you think as Nick does "No I don't see Islam as a threat." you are probably among those that didn't see Hitler or Lenin or Mao as a threat. Radical Islam is a "clear and present danger" beyond belief. So sit back and dream, and you'll have a callous on your forehead soon.

Muslim world - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Muslim Population Worldwide Data\\

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...ulation-more-widespread-than-you-might-think/

 

[Nick]

Few people across the pond realise that much of their hard earned donations to Noraid were in fact funding a largely criminal organisation known as the IRA. In fact both opposing paramilitaries in Northern Ireland had their roots in drug dealing, kidnapping, murder and extortion under the guise of "dissident Republicans" or "dissident Loyalists".

Criminal scum the lot of them...

Actually Keith even when they did know ie told by Colin Parry and his wife when they went over to the USA to film a documentary and he pleaded with them not to donate to Noraid, they would not listen and said they would continue to donate. How he kept his cool as it was not that long after the Warrington bombing I will never know, remarkable man.

I was raised in a devout Catholic family went to a Catholic school and was a practising Catholic for a considerable number of years. Now I prefer to think of myself as a practising Christian, practising because I am still not that good at it.

I was subjected to the, you must support the IRA if you are a Catholic, (nothing could be further from the truth), why don't you moderate Catholics speak out against the IRA, (we did but no one listened or listened to it but did not report it, controversy sells newspapers) bullshit accusations that are now being levelled against moderate Muslims.

I did know a remarkable very old formidable tell it like it is Irish Catholic lady who had a soft spot for me, as I used to visit her for chats as a young boy. She had to leave Ireland and come to England after being warned by the IRA it would not be safe for her to stay in Ireland because she worked for a British army officer. She was very young at the time and had to leave her family friends etc very quickly once warned, so I can also understand why some preferred or would prefer to remain quiet.

I will however never forget an overheard conversation on a train when I was about 13 that has stuck with me since. The old lady opposite started talking to a young soldier returning from a stint in Ireland. She asked him why the troubles continued, he said "because somewhere someone is making a lot of money out of it".

I have it on excellent authority that Catholic doctrine specifically frowns heavily upon murder, even IRA ones.

Right Veek although it's not just murder, one of the 10 commandments is thou shalt not kill I believe unfortunately, as far as I know from my catechism classes there is no get out clause even for killing Muslim extremists. P.S. don't shoot the messenger

As a reminder, it took 19 to kill 3,000 on 9/11.

But I'm glad your not frightened. It scares the crap out of me.

Terrorism works by making you frightened, as is often pointed out in another discussion there are over 30,000 road deaths a year in the US does that not fighten and scare the crap out of you. Or do you carry on driving.

Your provide an interesting moral equivalence of IRA/Catholics and Jihadist/Muslims though. I guess we should at this point ruminate about the atrocities of the Thirty Years War and Oliver Cromwell's fund raising overseas. It makes as much sense...

I moved to Warrington just over 20 years ago, my wife and children where planning to go in to town and buy a mothers day card. They didn't as she was busy, two other children that did were murdered by the IRA. Most days I pass the peace centre in Warrington started in their memory so I am reminded of it evey time I pass and it is not that long ago, if that is what you are implying by your thirty years war reference.

If you think as Nick does "No I don't see Islam as a threat." you are probably among those that didn't see Hitler or Lenin or Mao as a threat. Radical Islam is a "clear and present danger" beyond belief. So sit back and dream, and you'll have a callous on your forehead soon.

Muslim world - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Muslim Population Worldwide Data\\

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...ulation-more-widespread-than-you-might-think/

Al,

Please do not mis quote me the question was do I see Islam as a threat to my way of life, you actually then use the quote "If you think as Nick does "No I don't see Islam as a threat." but then change that later to talk about radical Islam and make it look like I don't believe radical Islam is a threat. It also contains another Ad Hominem Fallacy please stop them.

Please re read my answer to the original question.

 

[Nick]

or, more accurately, criminal gangs like the ISIS and Boko Haram. I think perhaps regarding these groups as religious fanatics may not be accurate- of course they cite religion in what they do but what they REALLY do is murder, extortion, robbery, and rape just like all criminal gangs. They are on a par with the North Koreans- the only difference is that the NKs have been at it longer and have consolidated their power in a specific geographic area. Even Al Qaeda has disowned ISIS- and AQ are not a virtuous organization to say the least. I think ISIS and BK are criminal enterprises operating under the mantle of religion, because it suits them to do it, but they are not a religious organization; they are a bunch of thugs attempting to impose a criminal dictatorship in their countries.

Jim,

Spot on.

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

None of us see moderate Islam as a threat, it's the 300 million radical Muslims that bother me.

I didn't misquote you, "No I don't see Islam as a threat." was sitting all by itself as a blanket statement, then there was a paragraph talking about terrorist etc.

 

[Nick]

None of us see moderate Islam as a threat, it's the 300 million radical Muslims that bother me.

I didn't misquote you, "No I don't see Islam as a threat." was sitting all by itself as a blanket statement, then there was a paragraph talking about terrorist etc.

Al,

If you refuse to accept or listen to the differentiaton I and others made and continue to make between Islam and radical Muslims even though you make that same differentiaton yourself then there is no point my debating this any further as I am not going to change your mind.

We will just have to agree to disagree

 

[Pete McCluskey.]

None of us see moderate Islam as a threat, it's the 300 million radical Muslims that bother me.

I didn't misquote you, "No I don't see Islam as a threat." was sitting all by itself as a blanket statement, then there was a paragraph talking about terrorist etc.

I do see the so called moderate Islam as a threat. They remain silent while their radical brothers committ atrocities. As did the moderate Germans at the time of the Holocaust, as did the moderate Irish at the time of the troubles, as did the moderate Japanese during WW2, as do the North Koreans.
I still remember the image of the student facing down the tank in Tiananmen Square. That is NOT remaining silent.
When average men do not speak out against wrong doing evil will prevail. I know I am paraphrasing someone but can't be bothered googling who.
Goodnight.
P.S.
Apparently it was Edmund Burke?

 

[Robert May Eng.]

We have overlooked the Palestinian`s agenda here, wanting the land is only part of the deal. Even if the Jews were driven into the water the Palestinians would still follow them , the agenda is death to all Jews. Answers on a post card please.

Bob

 

[Keith]

We have overlooked the Palestinian`s agenda here, wanting the land is only part of the deal. Even if the Jews were driven into the water the Palestinians would still follow them , the agenda is death to all Jews. Answers on a post card please.

Bob

There is no evidence (or only sporadic at best) to suggest that the Palestinians would pursue Israelis beyond their borders in order to 'annihilate' them. I have always taken it to mean that their intentions are directed only towards those 'occupying' their territory.

Anyway, it isn't going to happen, is it.

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

There is no evidence (or only sporadic at best) to suggest that the Palestinians would pursue Israelis beyond their borders in order to 'annihilate' them. I have always taken it to mean that their intentions are directed only towards those 'occupying' their territory.

Anyway, it isn't going to happen, is it.

I believe they were with the other Arabs in 1967.

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

I do see the so called moderate Islam as a threat. They remain silent while their radical brothers committ atrocities. As did the moderate Germans at the time of the Holocaust, as did the moderate Irish at the time of the troubles, as did the moderate Japanese during WW2, as do the North Koreans.
I still remember the image of the student facing down the tank in Tiananmen Square. That is NOT remaining silent.
When average men do not speak out against wrong doing evil will prevail. I know I am paraphrasing someone but can't be bothered googling who.
Goodnight.
P.S.
Apparently it was Edmund Burke?

I agree.

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

Propaganda run awry.
Gaza 'Corpses' Caught Moving When They Forget Cameras Are On Them

 

[Robert May Eng.]

There is no evidence (or only sporadic at best) to suggest that the Palestinians would pursue Israelis beyond their borders in order to 'annihilate' them. I have always taken it to mean that their intentions are directed only towards those 'occupying' their territory.

Anyway, it isn't going to happen, is it.

Keef I believe they will pursue the Jews and the western world, its all part of the bigger picture. Its not just about the land.

Interesting take on it. Why Palestinian Arabs Hate Jews | Jewish & Israel News Algemeiner.com

Bob

 

[Nick]

When average men do not speak out against wrong doing evil will prevail. I know I am paraphrasing someone but can't be bothered googling who.
Goodnight.
P.S.
Apparently it was Edmund Burke?

Pete,

You are right, good men do need to speak out, or more importantly act. The problem is lobbing bombs or going to war is not the answer. When two tribes go to war one is all they score and war always seems to lead to more evil from both sides not less, there's got to be a better way, war what is it good for?

There is a proven way for the path to violent extremism to be stopped. Children are not born racists, or terrorists or evil. “Give me the child until he is seven and I’ll give you the man” Saint. Francis Xavier

Below is a link on the Foundation for Peace website, to an article on how they work successfully towards ending the path to violent extremism.

They suffered serious funding issues recently until being helped by the government, ironic really considering the sums governments are prepared to pay buying weapons and waging war and how little we are prepared to spend on peace.

Maybe worth considering pressing the how can I help button if anyone is really serious about ending extremism.

The path to violent extremism starts young | Foundation for Peace

Second is a link to the Bolton Lads and girls Club who work similarly. I believe Amir Khan started boxing there, and you may not like the guy, like most young people he has made a few mistakes but I believe he is a positive role model for young Muslim men. He and many like him have said if it was not for the discipline and release that sport gave them they may have taken the wrong path.

Amir is also another Muslim who speaks out in his own way, Ten days after July 7, 2005 terrorist attacks in London, Khan proudly held the Union Flag when he walked to the ring. It was embroidered with the word “London” in black ribbons to mourn the victims

Bolton Lads & Girls Club

P.S. Pete if you do support the Lads and Girls club I cannot guarantee they will not produce the next Freddie Flintoff, Jonny Wilkinson, or Mozza (Adrian Morley) to whoop the Aussies in the next ashes rugby union or league match

 

[Pat]

For the record, my mother was born in Bangor and raised in Belfast. She was Catholic and was pretty righteous about the evil of murder, even when the IRA committed it. I also must have missed the "you must support the IRA if you are a Catholic" dogma in my Baltimore Catechism.
As for as your assertions that condemnation of such murders were not reported, you missed the Pope denouncing IRA bombings here's an article to refresh your memory. Pope Denounces Bombers - from the Catholic Herald Archive.
I have more family in Northern Ireland than anywhere else and they weren't fond of IRA terrorism either, even though my cousin was subjected to an evisceration in Belfast for the crime of being a Catholic in the wrong place and wrong time. (He was trying to see his girlfriend when a group of thugs seized upon him.) But that was thirty years ago.

I'm glad you can pass the peace centre in Warrington with no fear of attack. In terms of your personal safety, the IRA is apparently no longer a relevant threat and that's a good thing. In this country you hear the term "IRA" and one thinks of a financial instrument used for retirement. The same relevance could be said for Oliver Cromwell. But that was 360 years ago.

You regard ISIS and Boko Haram as "criminal gangs". That puts them in the category of the half dozen thugs that murdered my cousin. You don't seem to have a solid grasp on their scale.
The problem is they are big and growing. They are on the attack NOW. And while your faith may be nominally Christian, unless it is their unique brand of Islam they have announced they are committed to your destruction.
I would invite you to examine their compassion and reason in the beheading of Mr. Foley, the massacre of the Yazdis, (by the way they are reportedly selling 500 Christian women were abducted from Mosul for sex slaves), and murder of 300 Sunni scholars. Then there are the other miscellaneous beheadings, crucifixions and murders also going on as you read this.

The cold reality is they are multi-national armies that are committing genocide as I write this. Their size is approaching that of the current active duty force of the UK. They have over 400 UK nationals in their ranks. After the unfortunate murder of Saudi student Nahid Almanea, an alleged ISIS spokesperson has called for civilian retribution on the citizens of the UK.

So Nick the answer is an ISIS chapter of Bolton Lads and girls Club? Let me know how that works out.

 

[Nick]

For the record, my mother was born in Bangor and raised in Belfast. She was Catholic and was pretty righteous about the evil of murder, even when the IRA committed it. I also must have missed the "you must support the IRA if you are a Catholic" dogma in my Baltimore Catechism.
As for as your assertions that condemnation of such murders were not reported, you missed the Pope denouncing IRA bombings here's an article to refresh your memory. Pope Denounces Bombers - from the Catholic Herald Archive.
I have more family in Northern Ireland than anywhere else and they weren't fond of IRA terrorism either, even though my cousin was subjected to an evisceration in Belfast for the crime of being a Catholic in the wrong place and wrong time. (He was trying to see his girlfriend when a group of thugs seized upon him.) But that was thirty years ago.

I'm glad you can pass the peace centre in Warrington with no fear of attack. In terms of your personal safety, the IRA is apparently no longer a relevant threat and that's a good thing. In this country you hear the term "IRA" and one thinks of a financial instrument used for retirement. The same relevance could be said for Oliver Cromwell. But that was 360 years ago.

You regard ISIS and Boko Haram as "criminal gangs". That puts them in the category of the half dozen thugs that murdered my cousin. You don't seem to have a solid grasp on their scale.
The problem is they are big and growing. They are on the attack NOW. And while your faith may be nominally Christian, unless it is their unique brand of Islam they have announced they are committed to your destruction.
I would invite you to examine their compassion and reason in the beheading of Mr. Foley, the massacre of the Yazdis, (by the way they are reportedly selling 500 Christian women were abducted from Mosul for sex slaves), and murder of 300 Sunni scholars. Then there are the other miscellaneous beheadings, crucifixions and murders also going on as you read this.

The cold reality is they are multi-national armies that are committing genocide as I write this. Their size is approaching that of the current active duty force of the UK. They have over 400 UK nationals in their ranks. After the unfortunate murder of Saudi student Nahid Almanea, an alleged ISIS spokesperson has called for civilian retribution on the citizens of the UK.

So Nick the answer is an ISIS chapter of Bolton Lads and girls Club? Let me know how that works out.

Veek,

In part you have completely missed the point of what I was saying, and I have no idea what you are talking about on a number of points. I also seem to have made you quite angry for some reason even though some of what I said was agreeing with others.

However, making people angry has never been my aim, there should be no reason for you or anyone else to be angry with me in the future as I give up and withdraw from all posts like this in the paddock.

I wish you well.

Nick

 

[Keith]

Sorry to hear this Nick but in many ways you are right that intransigence seems to have crept in to the Paddock via political threads. It really wasn't that way prior to circa 2011, and actually I think I will join you in not contributing further to political threads - not that I did that much anyway as I have no firm convictions on quite a few major issues and if I do, well, they are mine and I keep them to myself.

 

[Jim Rosenthal]

Well, FWIW, most religions seem to have been used as excuses for criminal violence etc at some time in their histories.

And also FWIW I think militant Islam is a hell of a fucking threat. Pardon my French. I don't see the French as a threat, except maybe to France itself.