Cam change

[Jack Houpe]

Ho ho! That's a Ford DOHC Indy engine you're talking about. Pure home grown US Detroit (but exotic) muscle. I think a couple ended up in 40's but they were not well enough developed for the 24hrs of Le Mans. I think GTP 103 had one but it wasn't supplied that way from the factory.

Gurney took over the program and ran that engine very successfully as the Coyote in Indycar for many years before Cosworth. I believe Bob a member on this board bought the entire stock of the Gurney Eagle Indy motor, that's if you REALLY want one at around $25,000 +

If it were me, I wouldn't hesitate but you're not going to have a nice time on anything else but a race track with it. Zero practicality.

They sure are beautiful, and I bet the sound at 10-11k rpm is mind blowing. Not that much HP or torque on the low end, your right pretty useless for a street car.

 

[Rick Muck- Mark IV]

Ho ho! That's a Ford DOHC Indy engine you're talking about. Pure home grown US Detroit (but exotic) muscle. I think a couple ended up in 40's but they were not well enough developed for the 24hrs of Le Mans. I think GTP 103 had one but it wasn't supplied that way from the factory.

Gurney took over the program and ran that engine very successfully as the Coyote in Indycar for many years before Cosworth. I believe Bob a member on this board bought the entire stock of the Gurney Eagle Indy motor, that's if you REALLY want one at around $25,000 +

If it were me, I wouldn't hesitate but you're not going to have a nice time on anything else but a race track with it. Zero practicality.

Keith,

Actually the 255 CID Indy quadcam was taken over by A.J. and was marketed as a "FOYT". He was successful with it and was involved as it became turbocharged like the Offy was. Much like the Cosworth DFV the engine had a longer life than expected and finished its career in a very different form than it was born in. Dan was busy with the Weslake heads for the Windsor and at one point came very close to them being offered by Ford as factory option on Mustangs and Cougars.

 

[Keith]

Keith,

Actually the 255 CID Indy quadcam was taken over by A.J. and was marketed as a "FOYT". He was successful with it and was involved as it became turbocharged like the Offy was. Much like the Cosworth DFV the engine had a longer life than expected and finished its career in a very different form than it was born in. Dan was busy with the Weslake heads for the Windsor and at one point came very close to them being offered by Ford as factory option on Mustangs and Cougars.

Rick you're dead right. I knew it was one of you durned Yankees anyhow :laugh: I hope we're both in agreement concerning the complete lack of practicality for this wonderful engine in any GT40 that would be seeing the street or any track less than a full blown tri-oval!

 

[Sean]

I remmebr seeing a pic of a GT40 with the 255 if memory servs the headers came out the middle of the V.

 

[Sean]

Rick, in 08 we discussed this, I was frustrated as the car was new and uncontrollable for me and far to scary to drive on the street, he told be before I do anything buy avons and he was correct, the tires quit skipping at 95 MPH. In my note I asked options, he will get back with me.

Thanks Bob

If any of your are running a short block w 289-302-331 what ever and have a torque hp dyno sheet, please share here if you don't mind. It will be interesting to see what others have.

Did they not have an cosworth engine in the first car? Where the headers come from between the heads?

Jack you are dealing with a mismatch of parts more than anyhting. You gearing is for a short stroke high rev motor, and you motor is a stroker for max hp and torque.

What is chewing your tires is the torque mutiplied by the gearing. If youre going the 302 route so be it, but I really think the destroked 351 would work well. you have most of the bits and the efi will work here. If you go 302 its everything new.

On the 302 331 front. It seems these motors easily get 475hp when built right. You can also go for a 3.25 stroke 4.125 bore 302. This nets what is known as a big bore 347, as opposed to most 347's which have a 3.4 stroke and are more drag racers.


Some do a 3.4 stroke and the 4.125 bore for a 363, I have seen a number of mustangs on the track running abasic ford crate motor with this combo, and there is an Oz GT40 running this too.

A 4 barrel makes more Hp and less torque than webers and efi.


Really worked 302's with stock stroke can go well over 500hp but you are reving in the 7-8k range and need a 13.1 compression ratio.

I personaly think the sweetspot is a 3.25 stroke 4.125 bore. If you run good pistons and 5.4 rods then the rod ratio is really good, and its all about rod ratios in terms of smoothness and longevity. The benefit here is that you still have that low down tactability, although maybe with your short gearing its irrelevant, except that you still need to be able to drive in 5th on the highway.

Just my .02c

 

[Keith]

I remmebr seeing a pic of a GT40 with the 255 if memory servs the headers came out the middle of the V.

Bill Wonder's GT40P 103 if memory serves (it's serving us well so far!). The exhaust (and intake) location could swap making this quite a versatile design for it's day.

 

[Mike]

Jack, I know I am not contributing to your thread at all and I promise to never post in it again. That said... I just don't understand you guys. Torque is your friend. I've already pontificated about my S/C FGT and the toque it had which far and away exceeded anything you guys have with a 427. I had more fun in the machine below than anything I have ever driven. It had 1300 ft lbs or torque at 2200 rpm along with 600hp. It would demolish a GT40 in any sort of dig or roll race up to 110mph where it simply ran out of gear(4.10). You guys build what you like but torque is what makes the world go around!

I injected water into the intake stream post intercooler like a garden hose to control EGTs. So much fun!

BadAssDiesel.com
BadAssDiesel.com
BadAssDiesel.com

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wF3cDTRYWII]Diesel - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Richard]

Jack I put a 351 in my brothers 66 Mustang right after they came out in 69. The added torque was nice to have but the car was almost 1000 lbs heavier with 3.89 gears. Taller gears may have to be in your future.

I looked into an Indy engine when I first ordered my car. There is a guy that has collected these and other exotic Fords and would sell me one starting around $25K. I'm sure it would be double that by the time it was running. I was told there weren't many bellhousing made for this engine that had a starter.

Dean Jeffries has a GT40 Spider with an Indy engine in it. There are a few others, Road and Track did an article years ago on a guy that put one in a 40. He used the area we put our battery in for the dry sump oil storage. He said the engine idled very well.

Jack sorry for the history lesson. Your friends small block looks amazing. What it's displacement? If you buy it you can give me the Webers and put your EFI on instead. As well as I like my engine Webers or better a EFI look alike have always been on my wish list.

 

[Jack Houpe]

Haven't bought, traded, sold anything yet Richard, I'm waiting on Dennis suggestions. No the indy engine is impractical but like everyone its nice to dream about it, bet the sound would be extraordinary.

I would like a small block but will have to purchase engine and headers. Could change the internals on this engine but hate tearing apart a perfectly good engine that I have almost $20k in. Buy a 351 that makes 380-400 ft lbs torque and make the swap. Swap my engine for one I want and some money to make up difference.

Mike I think your a younger person than me, at my age I don't need surprises and this car will bite you in the ass. If you had seen the GT40 in Morroso FL that crashed because of it torque you might change your tune, I've told the story but it was horrific and they had to cut the driver out of the car, he spent 2 weeks in ICU before coming to our house in the keys where he spent another 2 weeks just getting well enough to travel back east. If there where fuel in the drivers right side tank he would not be here now. It was that enormous amount of torque that put that car off the track, it happened right in front of my eyes, yes if the driver would have not throttled so hard it may not have happen or perhaps if he had a smaller less torque engine it could not have been possible. The engine he had was identical to mine but with carburetor and distributor. Let that float around in your head for almost 20 years. This is a smart move for ME and I want to be around in a few years to see my grandson racing on the track, or perhaps help him build his first car. Personal preference, you want more HP and torque, more power to you seriously.

 

[Robert May Eng.]

I know Mike you say just don't press your foot so hard, but easier said than done, and believe me when I say I have NEVER had my foot to the floor on this car while under power, maybe to check the if the throttle bodies opened all the way while sitting in the garage.

I will call crane cams this morning so they can have a laugh then report back here some results, I'm sure they have computer dyno where they can plug in numbers. The money factor says try the least expensive first and its the cam change. I truly believe that a mild cam will change this motor to a pussy cat. If they say its impossible I'll sell it take the proceeds and go for a small block like Richards car. If I had to do it all over again it would be a KC small block but of course have to put EFI and do away with the distributor just because thats my thing.

Bill my engine is Dart aluminum block internally balanced also just 427, do you have a dyno sheet on your engine?

If the MkIIs of yesteryear were making 500 HP and 470 torque with a higher ring and pinion gear, even they had to be more street-able than what I have and they were race cars driven by professional race car drivers. This engine makes 100 more ft lbs of torque and 200 lbs lighter and driven by an old guy.

It may be an option to fit wheel speed sensors and get a soft cut on the ecu , a home grown traction control system may be a lot more cost effective than messing with what sounds like a very nice engine. Just thoughts.

Bob

 

[Jack Houpe]

It may be an option to fit wheel speed sensors and get a soft cut on the ecu , a home grown traction control system may be a lot more cost effective than messing with what sounds like a very nice engine. Just thoughts.

Bob

Now thats a interesting thought!

Come on over tonight for pint and we will talk shop. Seriously wish you all lived closer.

 

[Robert May Eng.]

There are a few different aftermarket systems , racelogic are pretty well known for a quality product. It may well be worth considering at the build stage for some. Jack you would not want me as a neighbour

Traction Control


Bob

 

[Mick Ridley]

Hi Jack,

You may be able to soften the power on your engine, by re-timing the cam.

Here is an intresting discussion on the subject. I have experimented with re-timeing cams on a twin cam engine, and its supprising what difference it can make

Cam timing question



.

 

[Jack Houpe]

Thanks Mick, I think my choices are sell, destroke, or trade on my engine. My thought was by changing the lift and duration this would decrease the torque as not as much fuel air would be entering an engine during the event but guess I was wrong to some degree, stroke and bore is my problem I suppose. I like the idea of traction control, works very well in all my normal cars and was fantastic in the acura nsx, and ford lightning I had. With this engine and the current ring and pinion ratio it would be working its ass off and that might become annoying. It all boils down to my choice of engine and lack of knowledge during the build process. After riding in Richards car it was night and day, his choice of smaller displacement and higher ratio final drive provided the car he wanted and my choice also.

 

[Robert May Eng.]

Here is a dyno sheet for a hopped up 302. Less power/torque than the strokers but still building power up to 7500 + rpm , the strokers HP is falling off after 5600 rpm which will have you grabbing the next gear. The screaming 302 will lengthen each gear by the best part of 2000 rpm which will make it feel far more flexible.

RPM TQ HP
4,600 348 305
4,700 353 316
4,800 357 326
4,900 362 338
5,000 373 355
5,100 379 368
5,200 382 378
5,300 381 384
5,400 382 392
5,500 381 399
5,600 381 406
5,700 385 418
5,800 387 427
5,900 386 433
6,000 381 435
6,100 375 435
6,200 374 442
6,300 373 447
6,400 373 454
6,500 369 457
6,600 369 463
6,700 365 466
6,800 358 464
6,900 355 467
7,000 353 470
7,100 351 475
7,200 348 477
7,300 344 478
7,400 340 478
7,500 336 479

http://www.gt40s.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=71107&stc=1&d=1395692159


For a road smoker the stroker is king but for a track day the tuned 302 or 331 will have its day.



Bob

 

[Keith]

Hmm, what kind of 'eads and induction?

Might that be a classic BOSS 302?

Anyway, impressive but must 'ave 'ad big 'eads and a reely strong valve set up.

Sorry, but my Sahf London accent keeps on slippin' aht.

 

[Jack Houpe]

That looks just perfect to me. Spoke with Dennis today, he has a header alternitive if I need to go with small block. Plan is to sell engine or swap with engine of equal value or some boot.

My engine
Dart aluminum block
comp cam solid rocker rollers
K1 Technologies (carrillo) forged crank and rods
AFR 225 heads
TWM throttle bodies
Electromotive TEC2
MSD DIS4 and individual coils per cylinder
Has no water pump (electric stays with me) or distributor.
EFI goes with engine

All interested contact me at [email protected] or PM here.
Test ride, compression test available.

 

[Steve]

Jack,

I'd copy that in the "garage sale" section as well as copy it in your local craigslist and racingjunk.com. Might not be a bad idea to go over to the factory five forums and post it there. I would bet a lot of people would be looking for an engine like yours for their Cobra.

Steve

 

[John]

Jack,
Do you mind if I post that on the Cobra forums?
I expect some might want some kind of a price range.
John

 

[Jack Houpe]

Jack,
Do you mind if I post that on the Cobra forums?
I expect some might want some kind of a price range.
John

Steve will do.

John please do that for me, thank you very much. Funny, Dennis said that someone in the cobra forum would want to have it and I should post it there. To each his own but I would think a cobra would even be more crazy with that kind of torque.