Engine advice and suppliers

[TrevS]

Hi all

My Tornado TS40 kit is due to arrive in the not too distant future so I thought while I had a bit of spare time to look at what engine I should go for. Having looked through quite a few posts there seems to be an endless amount of options. So my first question is what engine options do I have and who are the recommended suppliers of crate engines? All I know is that I want a 302 so that it is period correct.

Apologies for the very vague and open questions but I am very new to all this so if there are any books, website, posts etc that would be helpful on the subject then I'd be very grateful.

Thanks

Trevor

 

[Ian Anderson]

Trevor

The biggest question you will need to answer is
Will I drive this on the UK roads?

If so it will need to go through the IVA test and the emissions checking these is quite strict

So if you get a block with a current year casting number you will be required to meet the UK emissions for the year of the engine - catalitic convertets, Efi etc.

Or if you get an older block and have it reworked and overhauled to an "as new" state you can get an easier run on emissions and not need to go through the hoops! An early 1970's block forexample would only need a visible smoke test

So probably a bit more info is required on your expected use

Ian

 

[Graham]

Call me a heathen, but I'm probably heading down the LS3 route. NOT period correct, but VERY useable. Are you planning a road car or a track car, or a bit of both?

Apart from that, congratulations on finally (nearly) taking delivery. I had mine delivered two days ago and am still ordering Tools / screws / nuts and bolts / compressor / vice / bench drill / ohmygodallsortsofstuff!

Cheers,

Graham

 

[TrevS]

Trevor

The biggest question you will need to answer is
Will I drive this on the UK roads?

If so it will need to go through the IVA test and the emissions checking these is quite strict

So if you get a block with a current year casting number you will be required to meet the UK emissions for the year of the engine - catalitic convertets, Efi etc.

Or if you get an older block and have it reworked and overhauled to an "as new" state you can get an easier run on emissions and not need to go through the hoops! An early 1970's block forexample would only need a visible smoke test

So probably a bit more info is required on your expected use

Ian

Hi Ian

The car is going to be used on UK roads and possibly the odd trackday. I was hoping to buy a new engine off the shelf pre assembled and ready to slot into the car. I was also hoping to have a new block as I am having new parts for the entire car.

Also reading the build manual I was under the impression that if all new parts are used on a build then the car can be registered under the current years number (e.g 59/09 plate). But if older components are used then the car has to be registered on a q plate, not sure if this is correct?

Trev

 

[Simon]

Trev,

Speak to Mike Huddart of Huddart Engineering, he's a top bloke and there's not much he doesn't know about 302's!
VERY reasonably priced as well. he knows all about the needs of the IVA.

Simon

 

[Mike Pass]

Hi Trevor,
You don't say where in England you are based. I would employ an engine man near you so you can go and see what you are getting and you can discuss you needs and there is a face to talk to if there are any problems. You also don't say what you want in terms of performance or what your budget is. A good engine man will want to know what you want the engine for and what your budget is and then come up with the spec that will do what you want. Cammy engines with mega power are great on the track but a royal pain on the road and in traffic. I know a few people who have had to fit a milder cam to get useable torque and good road manners and good fuel consumption. I used £500 in fuel to go to Le Mans - a friend of mine used twice as much and has now fitted a milder cam!
To pass the test you can have one major component on your car which is not new. So if the motor is the only not new component you can use an old block and only need to have the emissions for that age of block.
There is much bull talked about power output so you should only believe a proper corrected dyno plot or a rolling road printout. Everything else is fiction. My 302 with road cam Edelbrock performer RPM heads, RPM manifold and 650cfm holley puts out a true 335bhp and 340ft.lbs. torque on an accurate rolling road and the car (GTD) is pretty quick.
If I was building a new 302 type block engine I would fit a 330ci or 347 ci steel stroker crank, steel rods and forged pistons, ally heads, road cam and good roller rockers. This on a Holley should give a genuine 420bhp 430 ft lbs and in a car of just over the ton should be pretty quick on the road or track.
Nick Dames of car of Car Construction Specialist in Derbyshire will build you a motor so you can see what goes into it and how it's been put together. Also Mike Huddart as above can build you one up. I would use Kenny Coleman at Engine Data Analysis in Pontefract as he has the full machining facilities in house. He can true up and bore old used blocks to a very high standard, fit new brass core plugs and fit screw in oilway plugs etc. so you build on a good base.
If you want a new 302 Martin Gough has a very nice 302 roller block short motor for sale. Check crate motors carefully as many have cheap chinese bits in them and some are very poorly assembled. You want inexpensive not cheap.
Cheers
Mike

 

[Jimmy P]

I agree with those advising to go local. This forum has a thread or two that speaks of doing your homework about engine builders and suppliers and what can happen before, during and after the build. Buy local so you can check on progress, return if problems arise after purchase and installation and so you can track them down for an A** whoopin should they do you wrong.

 

[Mike Drew]

I have a couple of UK-based friends who had engines built by Real Steel--they are both extremely happy with the results.

Just FYI....

 

[Jim Rosenthal]

Boy, do I ever agree with the above advice to buy local. MY GT40's engine was built by a local shop from a '68 Mexico block and caps I bought for $200 in Northern Virginia. A rather mild engine, to be sure, but made 360 hp on the dyno and that was without the GT40 exhaust system, and with one Holley 600 cfm carb. All the rotating assembly in it is Scat forged stuff, and the heads were AFR 185. They probably put too much cam in it- more than likely I will end up changing it out for something less biased towards the upper rev range. Maybe it will make a bit more with Webers and the bundle of snakes exhaust system.

By comparison, the engine for my Kirkham Cobra (also a 302) was built in Pittsburgh, PA, by a guy I found on the web. The basic rotating assembly was okay, but everything else was screwed up including a head gasket installed wrong end-for-end (SBFs are one of the few engines this can be done on, unfortunately). There was no dipstick in the engine- nor a place to put one!! There were no plugs in the thermal reactor ports and when we started it up flame came spitting out of those holes! The cam was totally the wrong one for a light car like the Cobra with a fairly long ring and pinion.

All very interesting, and fortunately all correctible. And to his credit the engine builder paid for the head gasket change. But my advice is find someone well-recommended to you who is local, who is familiar with Fords especially the SBF engines, and who doesn't ask for a lot of dosh up front. Someone who does that is trouble. In the case of the GT40's engine, I paid them along the way when they got work done, and the final bit after the dyno sheets were done and printed.

You might well ask why I didn't go back to them for the Cobra's engine. I tried- they were too busy!! and couldn't fit it in. It all turned out well in the end, but I would have saved time if they had done it.

 

[Howard Jones]

It will take a year or more to build your car. You have plenty of time to look into engines. My advice is to join up with one or more local Ford hot rod clubs. There are good GT40 clubs in England so you can start there but the cobra/mustang guys will be a lot of help also.

Get to know the fellows and ask around about engine builders. You will certainly find someone local who has built engines for the cars of your new friends in the club that they recommend because the engine guy did a good job for them.

The best information you can have is local from several people you know who own cars you see running every time you meet up your friends.

 

[TrevS]

Hi Trevor,
You don't say where in England you are based. I would employ an engine man near you so you can go and see what you are getting and you can discuss you needs and there is a face to talk to if there are any problems. You also don't say what you want in terms of performance or what your budget is. A good engine man will want to know what you want the engine for and what your budget is and then come up with the spec that will do what you want. Cammy engines with mega power are great on the track but a royal pain on the road and in traffic. I know a few people who have had to fit a milder cam to get useable torque and good road manners and good fuel consumption. I used £500 in fuel to go to Le Mans - a friend of mine used twice as much and has now fitted a milder cam!
To pass the test you can have one major component on your car which is not new. So if the motor is the only not new component you can use an old block and only need to have the emissions for that age of block.
There is much bull talked about power output so you should only believe a proper corrected dyno plot or a rolling road printout. Everything else is fiction. My 302 with road cam Edelbrock performer RPM heads, RPM manifold and 650cfm holley puts out a true 335bhp and 340ft.lbs. torque on an accurate rolling road and the car (GTD) is pretty quick.
If I was building a new 302 type block engine I would fit a 330ci or 347 ci steel stroker crank, steel rods and forged pistons, ally heads, road cam and good roller rockers. This on a Holley should give a genuine 420bhp 430 ft lbs and in a car of just over the ton should be pretty quick on the road or track.
Nick Dames of car of Car Construction Specialist in Derbyshire will build you a motor so you can see what goes into it and how it's been put together. Also Mike Huddart as above can build you one up. I would use Kenny Coleman at Engine Data Analysis in Pontefract as he has the full machining facilities in house. He can true up and bore old used blocks to a very high standard, fit new brass core plugs and fit screw in oilway plugs etc. so you build on a good base.
If you want a new 302 Martin Gough has a very nice 302 roller block short motor for sale. Check crate motors carefully as many have cheap chinese bits in them and some are very poorly assembled. You want inexpensive not cheap.
Cheers
Mike

Hi Mike

I am based in Rugby so would ideally like to find a supplier/builder in the midlands. As performance I'd really like something around the 420bhp mark. In terms of budget its difficult for me to say as I don't really know how much a good engine costs - £5k, £10k??? Ideally I'd like to keep the budget of up to around £7k.

I'd also need an older block to conform with IVA emissons tests and would like to run either webbers as they look great (sorry I am a designer) but I here they are tricky to setup so alternativly I'd go for something like a Edelbrock 4 barrel.

I've also just joined the GT40 enthusiasts club so Ill hopefully try and get down to a meeting soon and start picking some brains

Trev

www.gt40builder.com

 

[Scott Calabro]

Hi Trev,

Our engine builder here in the states can supply a 60's vintage SBF with that HP for your intended budget, probably with quad 44 IDF's and shipping too.

Call or email.

Cheers,
Scott

 

[TrevS]

Hi Trev,

Our engine builder here in the states can supply a 60's vintage SBF with that HP for your intended budget, probably with quad 44 IDF's and shipping too.

Call or email.

Cheers,
Scott

PM sent Scott

 

[Jim Rosenthal]

Trevor, again: try to buy local if you can. If you can't do that, buy from someone very well vetted indeed by people you know and trust. Like us

Seriously, a good SBF 302 should not be hard to find. Don't buy a crate engine. Buy something built by someone who cares about what they are doing, who puts good bits inside it. I looked at Ford crate engines, and if all you want to do is go to the drive in and then home, they may be fine. Track days? forget it. Fast road use? never mind.

Get a good solid motor with forged internals that you can thrash a bit. That way, you won't worry when you put your foot into it.

 

[TrevS]

Totally agree with what you've said about staying local so am currently looking into what's available in my area.

I've also started putting together a list to try and piece together my ideal engine and internals so that at least I know what components I should be looking to have installed in my engine when the time comes. It would be great if you guys can chip in with some ideas of parts that are 'must haves' or 'nice to have'.

Ford 302 5 litre v8 with 420bhp
-Built on period block for IVA
-Webbers (preferable) or Edelbrock 4 barrel carb
-Forged Pistons
-Edelbrock Performer RPM dual plane manifold
-Gurney Westlake or edelbrock rocker covers

Not much I know but its a start

Trev

www.gt40builder.com

 

[Mike Pass]

Hi Trevor.
Have a chat to Kenny Coleman at Engine Data Analysis even though he is not local to you.
Engine Data Analysis "Specialist Engine Building & Tuning"
He has been building road and high performance v8s for years and can also supply any bits you need. If you buy an old block it may not be square - Kenny has seen them 15 thou out on the deck faces. Have it checked it for cracks and give it a heavy duty chemical clean especially all the oil galleries etc. Crank line bore/hone. He has a special jig to true block faces to the crank centreline before he bores and hones them with a torque plate. This ensures that you have a good straight base to put your money into. Also new brass core plugs, screw in oil gallery plugs, new cam bearings, block relieved for clearance for stroker crank.

Most engine builders will have a few old SBF blocks in stock.


My directiom would be for forged pistons, steel rods, forged steel stroker crankshaft, steel flywheel, A1 balancing job, road cam, good quality roller rockers, alloy heads, big capacity gated sump, MSD dizzy and ignition, Chris Melia GW rocker covers. top quality main and big end bearings, ARP bolts everywhere, Melling standard capacity oil pump, top quality crank damper. The Performer RPM Air Gap will give a bit more power (19bhp) than the standard Performer RPM if you have room under the rear window. Holley 650cfm.
Webers will give a bit more power than the Holley/Edelbrock setup and look the part but at a big cost (£3,000). 8 barrell fuel injection will cost even more as you will need a decent ecu and need alsoto set up return lines back to the tanks/swirl pot.

Check out Real Steel etc, in UK and Summit Racing etc. in USA for a ballpark figures on parts and prices.
Do your homework and ask a million questions so you are clear about what you want (road, fast road or track) and what you need in parts and building to achieve that goal.
A spot on well built reliable torquey 347ci with internal balance and all the very best bits and Holley induction with 420bhp and loads of low down torque (see it run up on the dyno yourself) should be less than £7,000
Cheers
Mike

 

[Jim Rosenthal]

I agree with Mike. You can get the entire rotating assembly from Scat and the shop can balance it for you. I used AFR heads, 185cc intake runners; in the comparisons I could find they seemed to be the most consistently rated the highest for power and manufacturing quality. AFR also builds heads for other manufacturers like Holley, who sell AFR heads under their own brand name. Don't go too wild on the cam- you need a rev ceiling of 6500 at most. GT40s are light cars and don't benefit from a huge bulge in the hp and torque curve high up in the range.

Using a period block will likely limit you to a 2-bolt main bearing block unless you are lucky and can find a 60s 4-bolt block. I think they are hard to find but I am not certain. If you can find a Mexico block and main caps, they are said to be tougher as they were cast of a better iron alloy with a higher nickel content.

I also agree with what was said above about block prep- getting all the critical dimensions right is essential. If the motor isn't square and true in all dimensions it will never make the power it ought to.

It is easier to set the motor up and tune it using a 4-barrel and go to Webers later if you decide you want the extra power and the look, which is what we are planning to do. I would recommend a QuickFuels or ProForm Holley-type carb over the Holley- every single critical part of a QF or PF carb is adjustable or can be changed out for tuning- all the air bleed, jets etc are all modular- plus the carb parts are machined from billet, not cast like a Holley. It is a lot easier to tune and holds its adjustments much better. They don't cost any more than a Holley and they will work better.

Make sure you get an oil pan which will fit in the car and guard against oil starvation in turns. There are a lot of custom pans out there- the car builder should know which one will work. You might look at a remote oil filter rig- changing oil filters isn't easy in a GT40.

Most GT40 engines I have seen use a small-cap MSD distributor, because the front of the engine is up against the bulkhead. The additional clearance is needed.

Ford engines have a variety of water pumps- some have their intake on the right, some the left, etc etc. They spin in different directions. Also, some are made for modern front dress- a serpentine belt system- and some for old-fashioned V-belt drive. More than likely you will need the old system. Make sure you have all the parts that work together and that it will all fit in the car. The car builder will have been through this and can advise you accordingly.

And, finally, make SURE that you are happy with the performance of the engine on the dyno before it goes in the car. There is no substitute for that. The dyno hours and setup are a small part of the overall expense, but verifying the engine's integrity on the dyno is a key part of making sure you will be happy with it in the car.

 

[Jon Briggs]

There is Knight engine services in Daventry. I don't have a number with me but I will post it when I get home.

 

[Jon Briggs]

Here is the web address:

Knight Racing Services

 

[Chris Simpson]

Hi Trev

My engine, a 347 stroker, was from Real Steel. I am very happy with it so far - and I have no connection whatsoever with Real Steel apart from being a happy customer. You should get a 347 stroker on an early block (to reduce the emissions test requirements) delivering at least 400 bhp on the dyno for around £7,000. My engine made 442 bhp at 6,000 rpm and still going up.

Hope this helps.

Chris

PS Real Steel are agents for all sorts of American tuning bits and are one of 2 agents for Performance Ford in Europe (in case you would like "Ford Racing" rocker covers!).

Chris