I thought you knew !!

Well Ian

my point exactly, what a surprise after all you were the one that wanted to keep the lid on CAV going broke last year, I seem to recall a personal mail from you asking me to remove my post about it and when I refused to be silenced you continued attacking me.

Franks issue is a real concern about a real safety issue not point scoring.

Regards

Chris.

 

[Frank Catt]

Ron and all, my original post here was an attempt to judge opinion on the what to do in the circumstances described, BUT IT WAS PROMPTED by images being presented on the Forum by current builders. Now that Chris Melia has opened that concern ( see Ohio MDA thread ) it is fair to say that the photographs published by LaurieT, Jim Downard and today by Alistair Ward have given rise to a considerable amount of debate and discussion on this very subject by a number of very experienced engineers who watch the goings on in our community, and share our concerns. There have been other shrouded references to this same concern, see for instance Paul Thompsons "Listen to your car" thread, and others, and this to my mind brings us back to the original question I posed a week ago. Frank

 

[Ron Earp]

Frank,

If there is something you see wrong with the MDA chassis, then by all means point it out instead of hinting at it. I assume it has to do with the lack of bracing around the engine cradle and that being a weak point in the chassis.

But if you're just going to elude to the fact then why bother and post? I'm sure there are folks building their MDAs that would like to know about the situation, evaluate it, and decide if they consider it an issue or not. You, Chris, Paul, and others have the experience and unless you openly talk about the issues then none of us gain much of anything.

Ron

 

[Graham T]

Well done chaps......

It is Easter and you have just managed to virtually crucify MDA by specifically mentioning a specific post and then naming the company.
I said in my previous posting that a direct mail to the owner with ones misgivings should be the route to take initially. I bet none of you did that...

Oh boy, i bet there is going to be a lot of flack about now and a great number of very worried owners. I just hope that this open vindictiveness does not lead to more serious litigation issues.

Regards,

Graham @ GTA.

 

[Ron Earp]

Graham,

I really fail to see how a couple of independant engineers and builders on the forum looking at a design and indicating that they feel it needs some changes is vindictive. I see it as helpful advice and along the same lines as Frank's initial post - if you see something amiss then speak up and voice your concerns.

I realize I am going out on a limb here to even post on the thread since I admit I'm not sure what they are talking about since I've not seen the chassis nor have I been privy to private conversations. But here is my point - what happens if you are an XYZ owner, potential owner, or an owner of another similar chassis? You don't get the information as far as I can tell since it isn't posted openly. Taking your route, if Frank sees something amiss with XYZ chassis, and privately emails FreddieGT40 an XYZ chassis owner, then all the other owners of XYZ don't get any information that could help them out.

Sure, it is private and protects XYZ of a potential embarassing oversight, but, I feel it is much better to openly discuss such things now. Much better than letting the issues continue 2 years from now when owners of XYZ are all completely bent out of shape about a problem that could have been corrected easily.

I do not see that as vindictive, I see that as helpful and that is what this place is for - to help owners and builders get together and solve problems while fostering a nice since of community. Of course, there might be political stuff at work here that I do not understand, but I sure as hell hope not. Off rant.

Ron

 

[Graham T]

Ron,

You don,t know half about the goings on over this side of the pond.
Franks initial post did not mention or hint at a specific case and it was me who mentioned pictures that had been posted and potential problems and contacting the owners direct.
MDA must be allowed to sort all the many problems that constantly arise with the customers. As a constructor, i am also caught up in problems with one of my customers dealing with that company so i am not talking "blindly".Airing the issues like this is dodgy if the the posters do not have first hand knowledge or proof of default.

This affair is going to lead to tears......

Graham @ GTA.

 

[Ron Earp]

Graham, I am certain I don't know much about things that happen over that way. I have a lot of information that comes my way that must be kept private, which I completely honor. But none of it has to do with any of the people in this thread. I still don't see where this thread or the posts herein is such as issue, or how the other post that was cited is a problem. But I must be missing something completely. As such I'll stay out of it.

 

[Ross Nicol]

Ron Your XYZ example was excellent and is for sure the way I would like to see this forum work.I believe you should only be able to post to a forum and not be able to send messages personally.I have only sent private messages a few times but will admit to withdrawing from posting for fear of repercussions.I think the posters to the forum should detail their expertese as you have the manufacturers do.For myself I have declared that I race my car and from this I would expect the forum to understand I have a lot to do with the mechanicals and safety.
I would now like to take a positive direction here that Frank and the Pommie racers may like to add to.I have raced the Roaring Forties chassis for a year and a half now and although I have modified parts of the car for racing purposes, the chassis has not been modified at all and I jump in the car and drive the pants off it now with full confidence.I hope this gives confidence to future RF purchasers (unpaid plug).
Ross

 

[Mark Charlton]

I will first state that I also have no idea what's going on over the pond, but as a one-day GT40 owner (make undecided), I wish people would be more direct in their posts. I read Frank's original post, and then his later comment "It would appear from the consensus of opinion on this Forum, (450 views to just 4 replies) that you believe that it is best to "look the other way - its not your problem". How many of us here would knowingly allow someone to get hurt rather than say something? If it's not a lot closer to the 4 than the 450, I'd be shocked and hugely disappointed. I'd say something, but why waste forum space pronouncing it? If you want to take a poll, take a poll. If you want to point out a serious design flaw, then for that sake of us who are NOT engineers, and are far less experienced, please be direct and say something clearly. That assumes that the lives of us lesser beings are worth saving... My rant off. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

 

[JimmyMac]

Frank and Chris,
I have been watching this post and waiting for the punch line from the wings and now you both finally got there after testing your audience.
If I remember, your clique tried this last year by hinting about diagonal bracing. I don't know about the rest of us, but anybody who declares IMHO really has nothing worthwhile to say.
Vindictive ?
Hints about JP's car where he has not given a reason here as to why he decided to quit and buy something else seems me as rumour mongering. Let JP speak for himself, because I would surely like to read it.
Frank, you are purported to be a professional - I don't know if by qualification, or maybe by the less able who think you know a wee bit more than them, but in my opinion any practicing engineer is accountable by ethics not by the mood of the people.
So, "put your coques on the block" and let us have both of your opinions on the MDA chassis here, once and for all.
Professional or otherwise.

 

[James]

I love these "hot" topics.

My reason for quitting with MDA was really quite simple.

I couldn't wait any longer, that coupled with a mysterious engine failure, and enourmous pressure from my wife, meant that I was quite happy to hang up my gloves and buy something completely different.

I also think that it is VITAL that any potential problem with a chasis or ANY other piece of equipment be illustrated immediately without the said person being flamed.

You could be talking about the safety of someone's life.

Regards,

J.P

 

As a potential builder of a gt40 I have concerns too. I only know motorcyles and I see claims made all the time about how you can stick this huge engine and that huge engine in a frame not made for the engine size. The frames have to bend and twist beyond their original engineered potential. No one says anything about it. People in the business of selling bikes seem not to care. The thought is that's what the customer wants. We just have to tell them it will handle differently than a manufactured bike. Customers doesn't know s***. and probably most of the builders don't know either. Scary stuff. It really is all bull. Were is the liability. There is none.
Sorry about the rant but you guys here seem to be much smarter than most. You drive and race cars and also some of you sell the cars. What is wrong with pointing out a concern. Do we have to be afraid of being sued by the makers. If something is wrong or you think something doesn't look right why can't we discuss it.
We could be wrong and I think there are enough guys here to help point out that fact. Or maybe we could be right and the manufacturer could point out why they think we are wrong. Like I mentioned in the beginning there should be a race version and street version. Do all engineers agree about everything. I really doubt it. Voicing a concern should be directed to the manufacturer and if you are not happy with their answer we should be able to discuss it.
I came to this board to learn before I buy. But not everyone does it this way. They should. Good people here.
Keep up the good work.
Steve

 

hi guys

Having given this some thought one could do a simple test, use a magnetic dial gauge placed between the two chassis rails adjacent to the lower wishbone pivot points. Then let the car down onto its wheels if the engine and trans is out of the car then you would need say two fully grown GT40 guys to stand on the frame to increase the load. If the dial gauge deflects then weld in a new lower member if not then leave it alone.

I would be interested to know the outcome of this test so please publish the results.…

Regards
Chris.

 

[Howard Jones]

The loading issues here are dynamic not static. Simply stacking a couple of fat old men on it isn't my idea of engineering R&D.

It does look like a rather easy fix though.

 

hi Howard

On the GTD if the top brace is removed with the car on the ground with engine and trans in place then you need to take the weight off the wheels to refit the brace and align the bolts again as the static weight of the car pushes the uprights of the horse collar inboard.

This area of the frame is subject to both dynamic and static loads.
I admit this is a simple low cost back yard test, but it would be effective. If anyone has a better solution then please post I suppose you could always go down to you local F1 team garage and use their torsional test rig?

Regards

Chris.

 

[Chris Duncan]

Frank,

"I thought you knew" I just took it for granted that people should speak up when safety is an issue.

However it appears to be a more complex issue than that. The way this thread morphed from ho-hum to very interesting is indicative of that.

GTA917,

""Just recently a forum member sent a picture of their build but nobody has queried a certain "problem" that WILL rear its ugly head later on, unless they have sent a private Email to that member. I will write to him with my observation but i dare not put it up for all to see because it could cause severe problems to the supplier as well.""

I disagree. Safety issues should be as transparent as possible. If someone is posting potentially unsafe information and it's not addressed then anyone viewing can possibly infer that it's OK.

The only way that informing someone privately would be ok, would be if they corrected that information themselves, not leaving it out there for others to be misinformed.

These cars are very complex and the safety issue is the same. Sometimes safety issues may be not readily apparent or may be arguable from an engineering standpoint.

It is sometimes hard to tell somebody you think something is wrong, you don't want to publicly embarrass them especially if they are getting congratulatory posts. Who wants to be a wet blanket? But when does safety outweigh pride?

I know I've bitten my tongue more than once on stuff that is poorly engineered but not necessarily unsafe. Hopefully educated and experienced people will not keep quiet when it comes to safety.

I think also that manufactures especially should be responsive to safety issues, if they're not they shouldn't be in business.

 

Kalun,

I also thought the original post rather rhetorical but it has developed into a very interesting one. I agree transparency would be the safest policy but of course there are many other factors at work, mentioned in the posts above. Unless you are sure of your subject it is prudent to go carefully with your questions in order to uncover your personal concerns.

If everyone were entirely 'adult' in their reaction then a direct mail to the party should have the desired effect, either of allaying the fear or encouraging a design change - but between competitive people this may not always work! However I do think its worth a try.

 

[Brett James-McCall]

[ QUOTE ]
The loading issues here are dynamic not static. Simply stacking a couple of fat old men on it isn't my idea of engineering R&D.


[/ QUOTE ]

Howard, whilst I am no engineer, the chassis book I have at home describes something very similar to what Chris has said, but with 2 blokes standing on the end of a 10ft bar.

Brett

 

[Chris Martino]

Last post - I promise

Well fellas, what can I say? I mean really, what could I say that would satisfy everyone regarding the integrity of Mark and of MDA? Maybe I should drop the gloves and get under the skin of other GT40 brand owners? Would posting my observations of every owners build techniques and short-comings make everyone more aware of what they are doing? Would that help others, would that be constructive? Would anyone would mind if I ruffeled a few forum members feathers for the sake of bringing things to all attention?
I certainly wouldn't think Ian or Robert or Fran or others would put up with some of the complete nonsense if directed towards they're line of products. Some members are damm lucky Mark doesn't slap them up side the head with a court order for slander and more - can be done and wouldn't surprise me if it happened.

I hope to this point I have shown professional business practices and conduct under the circumstances. I have a lot to offer builders and current owners and will continue to do so if anyone should ask. Please contact me about any MDA inquiries via the email address of [email protected]

I look forward to my delivery at the end of April so I can start creating the excellent press that Mark and MDA deserve.

No disrespect but for 50 bills, I would have just kicked myself in the teeth for free.

Done.

 

[Ian K]

Chris,

I'm not sure how Mark could legally nail Frank and Chris for
slander. They are just pointing out concerns regarding the
chassis. Mark would have to prove that they are false
accusations. And since we are talking about chassis deflection,
proving those observations are wrong will become very tricky.
Also, if they are just stating an opinion, again, there is no
slander/defamation. Only if they are asserting fact. I for
one wish Mark all the best, but if those chassis
observations are true, I would hope Mark will be the first to
admit there is a flaw and do what it takes to rectify the situation.
If the observations do not pan out, then I would hope Frank
and Chris offer up their apologies.

I for one agree that such concerns should be pointed out in
the open. Regardless if they are factory/design issues or
builder issues. I'd rather know something was wrong before
I headed out to the track at 150 mph. And I'd like it out in
the open for all to see so that the same mistake is not repeated.

Ian