New member - very interested in getting into a DRB GT40
- Thread starter StuM5
- Start date
Pete McCluskey.
Lifetime Supporter
I quote from Queensland Transport, Vehicle Standards Instruction L.2.1
"Low Volume Production" Note that a manufacturer cannot produce more than three ICVs per year. This includes different model vehicles. Approved persons are reminded to complete the LH6 checklist section "vehicle constructed by......" The person or business that did most of the of the construction is to be nominated.
Note that the owner of the vehicle may have little or nothing to do with the manufacture of the vehicle.
Where a person or company has constructed three vehicles in a year, Qt will not issue a permit for another vehicle (regardless of owner) until a year after the first permit was issued."
My reading of this is a manufacturer may construct up to three ICVs in a year. And another year has to go by before a permit for another ICV will be issued.
Given the low volume of turn key cars produced and the time taken to build them. In my case nearly two years, I doubt that most manufactures in Australia would have a problem.
Of course the Governing bodies in other States may have different interpretations and probably do.
As always check with the local Authority to be sure.
"Low Volume Production" Note that a manufacturer cannot produce more than three ICVs per year. This includes different model vehicles. Approved persons are reminded to complete the LH6 checklist section "vehicle constructed by......" The person or business that did most of the of the construction is to be nominated.
Note that the owner of the vehicle may have little or nothing to do with the manufacture of the vehicle.
Where a person or company has constructed three vehicles in a year, Qt will not issue a permit for another vehicle (regardless of owner) until a year after the first permit was issued."
My reading of this is a manufacturer may construct up to three ICVs in a year. And another year has to go by before a permit for another ICV will be issued.
Given the low volume of turn key cars produced and the time taken to build them. In my case nearly two years, I doubt that most manufactures in Australia would have a problem.
Of course the Governing bodies in other States may have different interpretations and probably do.
As always check with the local Authority to be sure.
My last post didn't really add much but last night I thought about it a bit further and actually have a genuine question.
Dave raises a very good point. From the discussion so far it seems it is easier to get registered with a car you build yourself rather than a turn key (at least in NSW). From Pete's posts however he said he had few troubles registering his car (also noting he did so in Queensland). I am fairly certain that DRB aren't a licensed company to build a small number of cars and so turn keys are built on the basis that the customer is contracting out the work of their kit to them.
No doubt DRB are getting an engineers report as required when building turn keys for Queensland customers, but for other states, this would obviously prove more difficult. Would it therefore be theoretically impossible (or at the very least, bloody hard) to get DRB to build a turn key for an interstate (i.e Non Qld) customer even though they might very well do a much better job than the individual builder and also they might very well be complying with all the engineering requirements for that other state?
I ask this question because like Stu, I am considering purchasing a DRB turn key myself in due course due?
Cheers
Jack
Dave raises a very good point. From the discussion so far it seems it is easier to get registered with a car you build yourself rather than a turn key (at least in NSW). From Pete's posts however he said he had few troubles registering his car (also noting he did so in Queensland). I am fairly certain that DRB aren't a licensed company to build a small number of cars and so turn keys are built on the basis that the customer is contracting out the work of their kit to them.
No doubt DRB are getting an engineers report as required when building turn keys for Queensland customers, but for other states, this would obviously prove more difficult. Would it therefore be theoretically impossible (or at the very least, bloody hard) to get DRB to build a turn key for an interstate (i.e Non Qld) customer even though they might very well do a much better job than the individual builder and also they might very well be complying with all the engineering requirements for that other state?
I ask this question because like Stu, I am considering purchasing a DRB turn key myself in due course due?
Cheers
Jack
Pete McCluskey.
Lifetime Supporter
The easy way to solve the problem is to telephone your local state registering authority, talk to the vehicle standards section and ask them the simple question " May I get ABC company to manufacture an ICV for me and am I able to legally register it?"
Petes post re the Queensland Transport VSI is only part of the story.
I might suggest it may not be as simple as posted but I am not 100% familiar with QLD rules. I believe that the allowable 3 ICVs' in any one year period are for a person or an organisations' own use and not for sale as a commercial venture.
Petes post re the Queensland Transport VSI is only part of the story.
I might suggest it may not be as simple as posted but I am not 100% familiar with QLD rules. I believe that the allowable 3 ICVs' in any one year period are for a person or an organisations' own use and not for sale as a commercial venture.
Trevor as an approved NSW Engineer can you clarify this issue 100% in regards to NSW and can you provide some form of documented proof to back your claim.
When I licensed my GT40 I was asked for proof that I built my car, but when I asked why they said it was to prove I didn't steal the vehicle from someone else. This was quickly resolved with a stat-dec.
Dave S,
I am not claiming anything, I am stating facts applicable to NSW.
If you are in NSW telephone Barry Craig at the RTA.
He will confirm that you cannot register a turnkey car in NSW.
I am not claiming anything, I am stating facts applicable to NSW.
If you are in NSW telephone Barry Craig at the RTA.
He will confirm that you cannot register a turnkey car in NSW.
Sorry Guys for disappearing there for awhile.
Firstly thanks to everyone for saving me all those $$$ because who knows what I might have done without your guidance and this developing discussion which is obviously of interest to those who also may wish to get behind one of these vehicles. Also appreciate Trevor getting involved and giving us his professional advice, Thanks!
Well, given I don't have the abililty to build a GT40 and I can't outsource the build as this is clearly against legislation (not an ICV) it really only leaves me with one option - buy a completed vehicle. However there is a question that I would like Trevor to answer:
Trevor if I were to by a "True ICV" from another state, for example Dave S recently registered vehicle which is "True ICV", would there be an issue with the engine that car might be running? Dave S has a 5L windsor in his car, yet you advised me that to register these cars now in NSW this engine wouldn't comply. So the simple question is if every other aspect of Dave's car met NSW requirements would you certify it for NSW Rego with that engine?
The only other option that would be available to me so finding a partially completed vehicle in NSW and come to an agreement with that owner/builder or another capable Individual to complete the vehicle and register it with me agreeing to buy it. The reason this appeals to me as I wouldn't need to out lay the entire cost of the car in one hit.
cheers
Stuart
Firstly thanks to everyone for saving me all those $$$ because who knows what I might have done without your guidance and this developing discussion which is obviously of interest to those who also may wish to get behind one of these vehicles. Also appreciate Trevor getting involved and giving us his professional advice, Thanks!
Well, given I don't have the abililty to build a GT40 and I can't outsource the build as this is clearly against legislation (not an ICV) it really only leaves me with one option - buy a completed vehicle. However there is a question that I would like Trevor to answer:
Trevor if I were to by a "True ICV" from another state, for example Dave S recently registered vehicle which is "True ICV", would there be an issue with the engine that car might be running? Dave S has a 5L windsor in his car, yet you advised me that to register these cars now in NSW this engine wouldn't comply. So the simple question is if every other aspect of Dave's car met NSW requirements would you certify it for NSW Rego with that engine?
The only other option that would be available to me so finding a partially completed vehicle in NSW and come to an agreement with that owner/builder or another capable Individual to complete the vehicle and register it with me agreeing to buy it. The reason this appeals to me as I wouldn't need to out lay the entire cost of the car in one hit.
cheers
Stuart
Pete McCluskey.
Lifetime Supporter
According to previous posts, buying a partially completed vehicle would mean that it was not individually constructed. I.E. more than one person was involved in the construction and therefore NSW would not register it.
I hope that is not correct but if it is I have never heard so much bureaucratic bullsh*t in my life.
Stuart,
the answer is yes, you could register an ICV in NSW that was registered in another state provided it is a true ICV and that can be demonstrated.
I would certify it on that basis
Pete,
It would still be an ICV and registerable as such. It would need to meet the regulations at the time of registration.
the answer is yes, you could register an ICV in NSW that was registered in another state provided it is a true ICV and that can be demonstrated.
I would certify it on that basis
Pete,
It would still be an ICV and registerable as such. It would need to meet the regulations at the time of registration.
Peter Delaney
GT40s Supporter
Stuart, I guess it sounds like the "onus of proof" in terms of a "true ICV" is clearly with the owner trying to register it. I would imagine that a series of photos of the car in progressive stages of build in a private garage, along with a bunch of receipts made out to a private owner, might be sufficient.
It also sounds like it would not matter how many "individuals" were involved in serially building the car - as long as there was some reasonable evidence that a single "individual" was responsible for its construction during the phase of his ownership (see above).
With regard to the purchase of an previously-registered interstate ICV, and its subsequent rego in NSW, it looks ok providing (as Trevor points out) that it is demonstrably a "true ICV". In my understanding, there is virtually no difference between the States in their interpretation of the ADR's, EXCEPT, emissions/engines. Here, I think that NSW is a bit more strict than other states. All now have a "rolling window" of acceptable engines, but NSW's is smaller than other states (3 vs 5 years, I think). So the only worry I would have about an interstate ICV is if its engine was one that met the rules in VIC/QLD/WA at the rego time, but would not have met the NSW rules at that time ?
If the RTA knocked such a car back, & you were a lawyer with plenty of spare time, I reckon that you could have some fun with them over Section 92 of the Constitution - Restraint Of Trade Between The States !!
Kind Regards,
Peter D.
It also sounds like it would not matter how many "individuals" were involved in serially building the car - as long as there was some reasonable evidence that a single "individual" was responsible for its construction during the phase of his ownership (see above).
With regard to the purchase of an previously-registered interstate ICV, and its subsequent rego in NSW, it looks ok providing (as Trevor points out) that it is demonstrably a "true ICV". In my understanding, there is virtually no difference between the States in their interpretation of the ADR's, EXCEPT, emissions/engines. Here, I think that NSW is a bit more strict than other states. All now have a "rolling window" of acceptable engines, but NSW's is smaller than other states (3 vs 5 years, I think). So the only worry I would have about an interstate ICV is if its engine was one that met the rules in VIC/QLD/WA at the rego time, but would not have met the NSW rules at that time ?
If the RTA knocked such a car back, & you were a lawyer with plenty of spare time, I reckon that you could have some fun with them over Section 92 of the Constitution - Restraint Of Trade Between The States !!
Kind Regards,
Peter D.
Pete McCluskey.
Lifetime Supporter
Trevor, I am confused (which happens often) you say that a turnkey is not registrable in NSW, but one or more people can be involved in the build of an ICV.
In QLD the first step in construction is to apply to QLD Transport for permission to build an ICV. I assume NSW is the same.
If armed with the consent to build an ICV letter in NSW, could one then contract out the build to expert tradesmen/engineers body chassis builders, engine builder, upholsterer, auto electrician, painter etc and it still be considered an ICV in NSW given that one could produce receipts for this work and it complied?
I would think that not many, if any ICV's have been constructed without the owner contracting out work to other individuals or companies.
In QLD the first step in construction is to apply to QLD Transport for permission to build an ICV. I assume NSW is the same.
If armed with the consent to build an ICV letter in NSW, could one then contract out the build to expert tradesmen/engineers body chassis builders, engine builder, upholsterer, auto electrician, painter etc and it still be considered an ICV in NSW given that one could produce receipts for this work and it complied?
I would think that not many, if any ICV's have been constructed without the owner contracting out work to other individuals or companies.
Firstly, this is a brilliant thread that I have been following with interest.
It is a pitty that some of the aussie government people are not following it as well to see what confussion reigns in a country that applies "supposedly" one set of ADR's which frankly then get interpreted from state to state as they see fit and to the (dis)advantage of various individuals.
The big thing I can,t understand is that the type of vehicles being discussed (ICV's) make up a fraction of a percent of vehicles on the road and get subjected to crap legislation for engine type / pollution, etc. I have no problems with regs related to safety of the vehicle owner/driver or the safety of other road users.
It still staggers me with what the hot rod guys get away with in comparison.
Anyway, the question I would like to raise on the ICV issue is this. If hyperthetically, one was to buy an ICV from an individual or a dealer in one state, relocates it to another state for registration and use and that vehicle has passed through multiple owners over a number of years and the "Proof" of being an ICV has diminished or is non existant where do you stand?
Surely, as every vehicle has a VIN registered in Canberra there is a paper trail of some sort that follows that vehicle. So why cant the jokers in the "Public service" do their job rather than off loading it to the engineers or new owners to prove the vehicle is an ICV?
Sorry for the rant but I just hate the BS / red tape society that is making it increasingly harder to enjoy legitimate hobbies without looking over your shoulder for big brother all the time.
It is a pitty that some of the aussie government people are not following it as well to see what confussion reigns in a country that applies "supposedly" one set of ADR's which frankly then get interpreted from state to state as they see fit and to the (dis)advantage of various individuals.
The big thing I can,t understand is that the type of vehicles being discussed (ICV's) make up a fraction of a percent of vehicles on the road and get subjected to crap legislation for engine type / pollution, etc. I have no problems with regs related to safety of the vehicle owner/driver or the safety of other road users.
It still staggers me with what the hot rod guys get away with in comparison.
Anyway, the question I would like to raise on the ICV issue is this. If hyperthetically, one was to buy an ICV from an individual or a dealer in one state, relocates it to another state for registration and use and that vehicle has passed through multiple owners over a number of years and the "Proof" of being an ICV has diminished or is non existant where do you stand?
Surely, as every vehicle has a VIN registered in Canberra there is a paper trail of some sort that follows that vehicle. So why cant the jokers in the "Public service" do their job rather than off loading it to the engineers or new owners to prove the vehicle is an ICV?
Sorry for the rant but I just hate the BS / red tape society that is making it increasingly harder to enjoy legitimate hobbies without looking over your shoulder for big brother all the time.
Pete McCluskey.
Lifetime Supporter
Rick ditto to all of that.
"It staggers me what the Hot Rod guys get away with"
I wonder if one joined a hot rod club could a replica GT40 or Cobra could become a hot rod and get registered that way?
:dead:
"It staggers me what the Hot Rod guys get away with"
I wonder if one joined a hot rod club could a replica GT40 or Cobra could become a hot rod and get registered that way?
:dead:
Surely once a car has been through the ICV red tape and is then registered, it is considered to be the same as any other vehicle on the road. Road worthiness should then be the only factor any new owner has to deal with.
As with a modified vehicle that has been "engineered", the proof of the certification is kept at the RTA.
I also agree with Ricky and Pete that some of the measures that need to be met through ICV are ridiculous, as these cars are not daily drivers for most people & constitute about a bee's dick of a % of the registered cars on the road.
my 2cents
As with a modified vehicle that has been "engineered", the proof of the certification is kept at the RTA.
I also agree with Ricky and Pete that some of the measures that need to be met through ICV are ridiculous, as these cars are not daily drivers for most people & constitute about a bee's dick of a % of the registered cars on the road.
my 2cents
PeterD,
you can transfer rego from other states irrespective of engine.
The engine emission issue is a bit silly in NSW. ADR 79/01 accepts US certifed engines back to about 94, those limits happen to be the same as 37/01. NSW accepts US engines if you can prove the year of manufacture ie with engine number. The national code of practice recommends 37/01 limits.
Pete,
confusing it is. But an individual building a car can get professional assistance as required, it could make the difference between safe and unsafe.
This does not make it a turnkey car, not even close.
A turnkey car is one made by a factory for commercial gain by persons or organisations flaunting the law and thinking they are very smart because they get away with it. They are not doing the ICV industry any favours.
In NSW you do not need pre approval. In Qld you get pre approval to build and ICV, you do not get pre approval to have someone build you a turnkey car. NSW happens to be very vigilant, obviously Qld is not.
I would suggest that in the event you rang Qld Transport that is the answer they would give. Certainly that was the case several years ago when I did certify some Qld cars.
Ricadona,
The hot rod guys have to comply with all the same rules as for ICVs if they want full rego. For restricted club rego they have their own set of rules which they arrived at in consultation with the registering authorities. They are self regulating and dont generally cause any problems or kill people.
They were smart enough to speak with a combined voice and I say good luck to them. The kit car industry could have achieved the same thing if they had spoken with one voice. Problem was avarice and greed prevented them from speaking with a combined voice and now they pay the penalty.
The passage of time will cloud the memory of identity and turnkey cars
Bill H,
What the registering authorities are on about is protecting other road users. The RTA vehicle standards section was or may still be called "the road user protection group" It is about ensuring that cars such as ICVs are not likely to materially increase the risk of injury to other road users. The RTA is not the oger that everyone thinks they are, treat em right be honest with them and they will treat you in kind. I have several case examples of minor and inconsequential non compliance on ICVs only because of not trying to hide it.
There is no big bad "red tape" situation with ICVs in NSW, there is a set of rules all easy to comply with.
No I am not being paid by the RTA, but I will defend them, I dont have a problem dealing with them and have not in 36 years. I have a very simple approach - dont tell em bullshit. Very simple and it works for me.
Why dont some of you members form an association on a national basis.
You might be suprised who would listen to you.
you can transfer rego from other states irrespective of engine.
The engine emission issue is a bit silly in NSW. ADR 79/01 accepts US certifed engines back to about 94, those limits happen to be the same as 37/01. NSW accepts US engines if you can prove the year of manufacture ie with engine number. The national code of practice recommends 37/01 limits.
Pete,
confusing it is. But an individual building a car can get professional assistance as required, it could make the difference between safe and unsafe.
This does not make it a turnkey car, not even close.
A turnkey car is one made by a factory for commercial gain by persons or organisations flaunting the law and thinking they are very smart because they get away with it. They are not doing the ICV industry any favours.
In NSW you do not need pre approval. In Qld you get pre approval to build and ICV, you do not get pre approval to have someone build you a turnkey car. NSW happens to be very vigilant, obviously Qld is not.
I would suggest that in the event you rang Qld Transport that is the answer they would give. Certainly that was the case several years ago when I did certify some Qld cars.
Ricadona,
The hot rod guys have to comply with all the same rules as for ICVs if they want full rego. For restricted club rego they have their own set of rules which they arrived at in consultation with the registering authorities. They are self regulating and dont generally cause any problems or kill people.
They were smart enough to speak with a combined voice and I say good luck to them. The kit car industry could have achieved the same thing if they had spoken with one voice. Problem was avarice and greed prevented them from speaking with a combined voice and now they pay the penalty.
The passage of time will cloud the memory of identity and turnkey cars
Bill H,
What the registering authorities are on about is protecting other road users. The RTA vehicle standards section was or may still be called "the road user protection group" It is about ensuring that cars such as ICVs are not likely to materially increase the risk of injury to other road users. The RTA is not the oger that everyone thinks they are, treat em right be honest with them and they will treat you in kind. I have several case examples of minor and inconsequential non compliance on ICVs only because of not trying to hide it.
There is no big bad "red tape" situation with ICVs in NSW, there is a set of rules all easy to comply with.
No I am not being paid by the RTA, but I will defend them, I dont have a problem dealing with them and have not in 36 years. I have a very simple approach - dont tell em bullshit. Very simple and it works for me.
Why dont some of you members form an association on a national basis.
You might be suprised who would listen to you.
Wow - sounds to me like you have too many public servants over there trying to justify their jobs by coming up with ever increasing BS and red tape.
I have a very good friend in Australia who started building a Cobra replica in Victoria. When it was half finished he moved to Brisbane, and took the project with him. In the end he had to sell the whole project because the red tape and rubbish was so great he had no other option. And not that he couldnt build it either, he is a time served mechanic (and still is) and has built several cars in NZ.
Im so glad that in NZ, the specialist car people (kits, rods etc) all spoke as one voice, and over here, one can build what they like as the guidelines are very straightforward.
I have a very good friend in Australia who started building a Cobra replica in Victoria. When it was half finished he moved to Brisbane, and took the project with him. In the end he had to sell the whole project because the red tape and rubbish was so great he had no other option. And not that he couldnt build it either, he is a time served mechanic (and still is) and has built several cars in NZ.
Im so glad that in NZ, the specialist car people (kits, rods etc) all spoke as one voice, and over here, one can build what they like as the guidelines are very straightforward.