New member - very interested in getting into a DRB GT40

Pete, i agree that it can, and has, been done that way. All i am saying is that, having had recent intimate knowledge of how the RTA are veiwing this process, that they are not particularly keen on turnkey ICV's, and are watching manufacturers and engineers very carefully. I'm not trying to say it's right or wrong. Best bet is to be completely open and honest, as Dimi has pointed out in another thread.
(I wish the poeple i got my car off had been open and honest with me.)

 

[Pete McCluskey.]

Tim I'm not disagreeing with you, just pointing out that if one follows the correct procedure a turnkey should not be a problem.
Much easier of course to purchase a car that is already registered.

 

[Stu Coleman]

Stuart,
I know this section of the Forum is for GT40 Australia (ie. DRB) cars, but if you want to shortcut the above mentioned hassles there is a 2005 RF40 for sale at Coastal Quality Cars, just north of Sydney (tel. 1300 782 550). It is road registered in NSW, and has 8 throttle bodies on the engine (just sneaked this engine through in time) which is more authentic looking than the currently allowed (NSW) engines. You can still do work on the car, as it's a bit bare inside, no seals under the headlight covers, etc., and does NOT have air conditioning. IMHO the DRB is currently a better developed car for road use, but this RF40 could be reasonable value (I have only seen photos) for you at $98,000.
Cheers,
Dalton

Hi Dalton

Yes I've spoken to the people selling it. The fact it has NO A/C turns me off it. The engine is a Lexus Quad cam with 8 stack injection, while these are awesome engines I think it reduces the cars re-sale value because it's not a Ford engine. The car is also Right Hand Shift which I'd have to experince to see if I liked it. Appreciate the "heads-up" though.

Cheers

 

[Stu Coleman]

Thanks guys for the open and honest discussion, it's really great coming to a car forum where it's members offer you their time to even give you their advice and opinions.

Tim, Pete & Dave,
Individually CONTRACTED Vehicle as opposed to Individually CONSTRUCTED Vehicle.
It appears, from what you are saying, that you can CONTRACT out the build of the car to a company capable of bringing it to a "Turnkey" status as long as the certifying Engineer used is independent of the company doing the build?

Is that what you guys are saying?

cheers

 

[Dave]

I can't see an issue regarding DRB building the vehicle as long as it complies with NSW regs, Like everyone you have to contact an Engineer and the RTA to get your guidelines, then you can start your build. Whether you sub out every job on the car or do it yourself you are still in charge of the build. If you bought a half finished car, is that a Individually CONTRACTED Vehicle? as someone else has done most of the the work.
Sounds like a mine field that would impossible to police.

Peter D is the man I would seek advice from as he has licensed a DRB in NSW and knows the 'ins and outs' of rego.

 

[Trevor Booth]

An individually constructed vehicle means a vehicle constructed by an individual. It does not mean that you need to make everything. What it does mean is that YOU source the components and YOU put it all together.

It does not mean that you walk into a kit car constructor, cheque book in hand, and walk out with a complete car in a lot of boxes and then assemble it yourself.

The individual can start with a proprietory chassis and body, (most Engineers get a bit nervous about a backyard built chassis).

Any organisation that builds turnkey cars without fitting a compliance plate is in breach of the Motor Vehicle Standards Act. For those building turnkey cars it is not difficult to obtain Low Volume compliance.

Those of you who aid and abet the "under the table" turnkey process are only contributing to the ultimate demise of ICV's.

All of the Acts and regulations are in the public domain-read them.

Just think about your CTP. When you take out your CTP you make a Statement that the car is "homemade" that in itself is false and misleading if you purchased a turnkey car with no compliance plate.

The benefits of deception will quickly vanish when the insurer denies a CTP claim.

Who would you blame for that---no one but yourself.

Trevor Booth

 

Ahh. An informed opinion. Thank you Trevor for shedding some light on the issue.

 

[Dave]

Ok Trevor can you please clear this up, A guy buys a used DRB GT40
from WA he transports it over to NSW. The car is deregistered in WA and
he now wants to lic the car in NSW. I assume the car will have to be re-engineered before it's submitted to the RTA for inspection? and assuming the car passes all tests Is the car then licensed as an ICV or other?

 

[Peter Delaney]

Stuart, in terms of getting into a GT40 in NSW, it looks like there are a number of options, some of which could be :

The safe ways seem to be :

a) Buy a finished car which is already registered in NSW

b) Buy the bare bones & build it yourself under the guidance of an engineer

More risky ways would appear to be :

c) Buy an interstate registered car & try to transfer rego to NSW

d) Buy a part-finished car, then complete it yourself (with an engineer's guidance) - the tricky bit here might be proving that a previous owner "individually constructed" that part of the car up until you bought it.

Really risky ways would be :

e) Buy a turnkey car from any manufacturer & try to get NSW rego. (Or get the manufacturer to register it in his own State, then try (c) above).

f) Buy a part-finished car & contract the completion to a professional w/shop - same problem as (d) above, but with the added problem of "proving" that you finished it off yourself - dodgy !

I think that your best approach would be to contract a reputable engineer who can guide you through the "investigation stage" - he should be able to tell you how practical/risky each of the options are, and in particular, give you an assessment of any "part-built" car that you might be looking at.

Hope this helps a bit (& Hint, Hint to Trevor - any comments ?) !

Kind Regards,

Peter D.

 

[Dimi Terleckyj]

Hi all
I have read this thread with much interest and would like to make the following comment.

When I contacted my engineer who is overseeing my build one of the comments he made re ICV construction which could be a problem was proving that I was in fact building this vehicle.
He requested that I document / photograph all stages of construction and maintain accurate and complete documentation, receipts,etc, for all the various parts and outsourcing of fabrication so we would be able to substantiate my role in the build when the RTA required proof of construction.
Which he also stated they almost certainly would.

He also stated that if along with his report and necessary paperwork all the above could be provided when the vehicle is presented for registration to the RTA and also that the vehicle must be totally completed ie, painted and upholstered there would be no problem with rego.

I have unfortunately watched a number of my friends who have registered modified vehicles by dubious means come to severe financial grief both personally and via the law.

This is the reason I believe being honest and up front with everyone in a build of this nature is the only way these cars can be registered and enjoyed without constantly looking over one's shoulder.

The above are only my own humble views and opinions.

Dimi

 

[Dave]

This is the reason I believe being honest and up front with everyone in a build of this nature is the only way these cars can be registered and enjoyed without constantly looking over one's shoulder

Dimi I hear what you are saying but you actually will be looking over your shoulder when you drop your quiet exhaust system for your sports??

We all bend the rules or push them as far as we can. No one drives around with a 92 decibel exhaust system except for Engineering. Just about every build thread you read has a RTA version and the real car, some are very different others just have mild changes like exhaust sytem and a few other
mods.

 

Excellent. This has become a great discussion. There has been so much "grey area" around ICV (particularly in NSW), this thread is digging deep, and should be of benefit to anyone looking at buying or building.
Stu, your simple question has opened a can of worms that has been busting to get out for ages. Don't get overwhelmed, or discouraged by all this. It may end up making things much clearer for you. You gotta talk to the right people and got the right info. Take Dimi's case, he's doing it now, and it would appear, doing it right.

 

[Peter Delaney]

Dimi, I think that you have hit the nail on the head - pictorial & documentary proof that you are the "prime builder" = ICV.

If you had a set of pics showing the car in progressive stages of completion (in your own identifiable garage), together with a wide variety of receipts for bits & pieces in your name, you should be ok.

So, I am guessing that if you bought a part-finished car from someone, you would need this type of documentation from them, then add your own as you go, & you should still be ok.

I totally agree with you that the only way is the "fully legal"" way - then you can sleep at night !

I only mentioned the "risky" approaches in my last post as an example of how not to do it !

AlbanyGT (Dave, I think ?) - you are right, but there are 2 distinct issues here:

- What is presented for rego & how it is done : if this is done right, then you have no chance of having the RTA pull your plates some time in the future. If you go the dodgy route, there is a chance that might happen if the RTA does another witch-hunt amongst the engineers (already done once, I believe).

- Owner choice / risk in doing after-rego mods : Once registered legitimately, you can decide on the level of risk associated with these mods. If you get sprung, I think the worst that can happen is a "defect notice" regarding the offending mod, a fix back to original specs, & maybe a new Blue Slip.

Kind Regards,

Peter D.

 

[Peter Delaney]

Tim, well said - the "grey area" surrounding ICV's in NSW has been a bit of a standing joke for years.

Why on earth can't the RTA just produce 2 straight-forward documents ? :

- An accurate explanation of the rules for an ICV rego

- A list of the ADR requirements that they will accept

Instead, our esteemed "public servants" throw the job of "interpreting the rules" at the licenced Engineers & hide behind that. These Engineers should be paid a retainer fee by the RTA - after all, they are doing the RTA's job for them !!

Kind Regards,

Peter D.

 

[Dave]

IMHO My point is that we are all BSing the RTA whether it's at time of inspection or after when all is done and the upgrades start. The vehicle presented to the RTA for inspection is not the intended vehicle we wish to drive. So then it comes down to which white lie we wish to use, whethers it's "I built it myself" knowing DRB built a quality fully complying car or "I've completely finished this car myself so there is no option for modifying it afterwards". Knowing full well when you get home you're slapping on your bling sports system and dropping the car suspension height down to the weeds so the car looks cool and maybe a cam change the list goes on.
It's still misleading the RTA and the Engineer.

I'm not telling Stu to buy a DRB turn key and he will have no problems infact I agree'd completely with TIm on his initial advice on consulting the RTA .My issue is with the definition of An individually CONTRACTED vehicle and the benefits of deception in regards to the RTA. I believe that these
kits supplied by DRB are low volume cars as you're not constructing the car you're assembling it and at what level of completion makes a kit fall into this category? Does this mean you shop around till you find an Engineer that will accept the build at that level or do buy a turn key car from DRB pull it to pieces call an Engineer and assemble it in front of him at your house? saying you got the kit painted straight up on delivery?

 

[Trevor Booth]

An ICV deregistered in one state then transferred to NSW (and presumably others) is licensed as an ICV. In NSW the vehicle has to undergoe the same paperwork and inspection as if it was a true ICV. Sometimes this is difficult if the origin of the vehicle is not clear ie if it was not based on a kit from a reputable manufacturer. Transferring to NSW is not generally a problem if it was a TRUE ICV in the first instance. Transferring a non compliance plated turnkey to NSW, dont waste your time trying.

Buying a part completed vehicle, no problem as long as it was a true ICV and its construction is completed as an ICV. You will need documented proof of its origin.

Dimi is doing it the correct way and has had the right advice from his Engineer, enjoy your car when you finish it.


Peter D - In the event that you read the legislation it is reasonably clear what an ICV is. The same goes for what ADR's you need to demonstrate compliance for, basically it is the same as Low Volume compliance. There are no exemptions from any ADR although there are alternate means of demonstrating compliance i.e. the IM 240 test for emissions. The RTA has been working on a plain english document for ICV's for some time. This has been a consultative process with NSW Engineers.

Engineers in most states have become the pseudo technical enquiries department of state registering authorities.

Most people believe that the NSW RTA is tough and hard to deal with, this could not be further from the truth. If you are open and honest with them, they will treat you the same way. The NSW rules for modified vehicles are in fact more liberal than some other states.

The NSW RTA approach to ICV's is strict, but it will ensure the survival of ICV's.

 

[Dave]

An ICV deregistered in one state then transferred to NSW (and presumably others) is licensed as an ICV. In NSW the vehicle has to undergoe the same paperwork and inspection as if it was a true ICV. Sometimes this is difficult if the origin of the vehicle is not clear ie if it was not based on a kit from a reputable manufacturer. Transferring to NSW is not generally a problem if it was a TRUE ICV in the first instance. Transferring a non compliance plated turnkey to NSW, dont waste your time trying.

This is very interesting, as an example Stu could buy my newly registered DRB and have no troubles transferring it to NSW as long as it comply's as he has a build thread of evidence that the one owner built the car. But he can't buy Pete's immaculate Factory built car as we all know it was a turn key?
Does this mean that people that have turn keys ordered from DRB that live in NSW have a huge issue coming up and that they should be warned before they suffer huge financial loss?

Dimi is doing it the correct way and has had the right advice from his Engineer, enjoy your car when you finish it.

IMHO in regards to Dimi's car and others is that they are planning on modifying the car after inspection to an illegal form which is then premeditated fraud and Engineers that aid and abet this by turning a blind afterwards are also contributing to the ultimate demise of ICV's.

 

[Dimi Terleckyj]

With all due respect Dave:
If it comes down to the nitty gritty of it all, anyone that changes even so much as a spark plug from that recommended by the OEM manufacturer has illegally modified the car.
With regard to my own car I dont even know if the sports system on my car is loud or not as I haven't been able to fire up the motor as yet.
It may well be the sports system is quiet enough and I wont need to use the standard muffler.

This thread is not about individual modifications but about the issue of what constitutes an ICV and how it relates to the RTA policies with regard to getting our cars registered legally.
Your comment about engineers aiding and abetting fraud by knowing about intended modifications is incorrect.
I would put forward that the engineers involvement is confined to the construction stage and up to the time of final approval and rego.
My engineer told me he was only interested in the details of my car, as it involved him, up to completion and rego, after that as he was not involved in any further modification or alteration, he has no knowledge of anything I might choose to do with the car and as such cannot be held liable or accused of deceipt.
Any alterations I might make to my car after rego has not been discussed with my engineer and so as far as he is concerned he is signing off on a vehicle that complied at the date he last sighted and signed off on the vehicle.
As such he has not broken any laws and everything is above board.

Dimi

 

[Dave]

Dimi this thread is not about you and your personal build. I am sorry that I used your build as an example and I apoligise if I have offended you.
I am not in anyway suggesting that your build is illegal or poorly Engineered and my comment about Engineers was used in a general way.
I feel we are at the stage of splitting hairs but sometimes it has to come to that to get a clear picture.

Are DRB breaking the rules? I'm not sure.

Have we uncovered a huge issue in regards to defining ICV? I believe so.
I didn't know there was issue in regards to ICV and maybe Tim just saved Stu $$$$. Hopefully this thread will help guide people buying New/used and half built Kit cars.

 

[Dimi Terleckyj]

Hi Dave
No offense was taken.
I was only replying to some of the comments which I felt were off the mark.

When Stu first posted his enquiry I was one of the first to reply to him and I then spoke to him at great length on the phone regarding all aspects of building a GT40 and I must admit I was brutally honest with the reality of what he would be taking on and the resources he would have to have to enable him to complete a project of this complexity.

In my past I have built approx 6 cars ranging from extreme modification of production cars to scratch building a street rod and facing the RTA numerous times but the one thing even with my extensive experience my GT40 has at times stretched my patience and grey matter more than any other car I have 'played' with.

Building a GT40 and sourcing the parts by one's self takes you out of the league of go karts to the REAL thing.

I dont believe Stu realised or could imagine what he was in for and so it was great for him to discuss this with the forum and get the benefit of our experience before jumping into something he may have greatly regretted and also saved himself numerous $$$$$$$$$$$$$$.

This thread has also enabled a topic,namely ICV's, to be discussed openly and I must honestly say not before time.

Things are being discussed that sorely needed airing and I dont think it will end here just yet.

Dimi