SPF #2285 Born, But Still Coming To Life
- Thread starter soulcoaxer
- Start date
Robert S.
GT40s Supporter
Kevin,
Regarding chassi number on group of photos of my car within post #281, those were PS'd onto the photos for now. The p2285 will ultimately be placed on the car once the next group of decals is completed. I was hesitant to place the chassis number on the car until all other decals were finalized and in place. Robert
Regarding chassi number on group of photos of my car within post #281, those were PS'd onto the photos for now. The p2285 will ultimately be placed on the car once the next group of decals is completed. I was hesitant to place the chassis number on the car until all other decals were finalized and in place. Robert
Robert S.
GT40s Supporter
Engine Failure ?
This post concerns two issues: Possible Engine Failure and Photos that depict the HIGH stance of the car when the four wheel lift system is in the UP position.
Engine Failure
The engine made a chain grinding type noise, followed by a quick exhaust backfire, and then would not start. Hope it was not detonation, but likely is not since it happened at low speed. Standby for diagnoses.
High Body Stance
Due to recent interest in four-wheel hydraulic lift system on my GT40, the following photos will show the HIGH position. The lower ride position was depicted in the photos within this thread, page 14, post#266.
This post concerns two issues: Possible Engine Failure and Photos that depict the HIGH stance of the car when the four wheel lift system is in the UP position.
Engine Failure
The engine made a chain grinding type noise, followed by a quick exhaust backfire, and then would not start. Hope it was not detonation, but likely is not since it happened at low speed. Standby for diagnoses.
High Body Stance
Due to recent interest in four-wheel hydraulic lift system on my GT40, the following photos will show the HIGH position. The lower ride position was depicted in the photos within this thread, page 14, post#266.
Robert, hopefully it was something simple. Many small block Fords experience distributor gear failure for a number of reasons. When they go, short grinding, backfiring followed by silence and no start. Sometimes the failure of the distributor gear takes the camshaft gear with it necessitating the replacement of both.
Roller cams are typically steel and require either a steel or bronze gear on the distributor. Standard camshafts are iron and the distributor gear is iron. You cannot mix the two - with rare exception.
Roller cams are typically steel and require either a steel or bronze gear on the distributor. Standard camshafts are iron and the distributor gear is iron. You cannot mix the two - with rare exception.
Robert S.
GT40s Supporter
Possible Engine Problem Causes
Thank you sir, that is worthy information for me to learn about. It is also optimistic, which serves equally well. Your stellar communication efforts are very much appreciated here, and by many other forum members too. :thumbsup:
Best to you, Robert
Thank you sir, that is worthy information for me to learn about. It is also optimistic, which serves equally well. Your stellar communication efforts are very much appreciated here, and by many other forum members too. :thumbsup:
Best to you, Robert
Here's what it looks like when a somewhat clueless parts vendor sells you a 'steel gear' for a roller cam, that turns out to be nothing of the sort.
Link to two photos of the cam gear that destroyed the cam in my 351C in short order....
Bad distributor gear
Link to two photos of the cam gear that destroyed the cam in my 351C in short order....
Bad distributor gear
Another thing it could be is a sheared roll pin in the distributor gear. An easy fix..
Roll pins generally shear when the engine is not all the way up to operating temp and the oil is thick.. A little jazzing of the throttle starts the shearing effect.
This has been blamed many times on high volume and high pressure oil pumps. The SBF only has two black eyes in my opinion.
1) only 4 headbolts per cylinder and the 302's are hamstrung worse with 7/16" bolts.
2) distributor gear interface is too small.
Hoping for the best for you Robert. I may be all wet on both of these, but I hope not..
Roll pins generally shear when the engine is not all the way up to operating temp and the oil is thick.. A little jazzing of the throttle starts the shearing effect.
This has been blamed many times on high volume and high pressure oil pumps. The SBF only has two black eyes in my opinion.
1) only 4 headbolts per cylinder and the 302's are hamstrung worse with 7/16" bolts.
2) distributor gear interface is too small.
Hoping for the best for you Robert. I may be all wet on both of these, but I hope not..
Robert S.
GT40s Supporter
Engine Failure Reply
Randy,
I believe your first instinct was correct because the problem originated with a failure in the ignition spark distribution area. Good call!
We used the FAST 2.0 ECU, and the FAST dual sync distributor to control the 8-stack FI system on my GT40. The FAST distributor employs the G.M. type of rotor cap that uses two small screws to fasten the rotor to the top of the distributor. Neither of the two screws were installed with any lock-tight, or other type of screw retention device. One screw came completely out from its location as the engine was running, and began to bounce around inside of the top portion of the distributor cap. During its travels it chipped the tops of most of the eight spark connectors at the top of the cap, scored the inside of the cap and top surface of the rotor, and was eventually ejected like a bullet out through the thick body of the side of the distributor cap. This damage was initially hidden from view because it was located exactly at the back side of the distributor right up near to the glass bulkhead window. SEE photos below.
It is currently not known if any other components were damaged.
Robert
Randy,
I believe your first instinct was correct because the problem originated with a failure in the ignition spark distribution area. Good call!
We used the FAST 2.0 ECU, and the FAST dual sync distributor to control the 8-stack FI system on my GT40. The FAST distributor employs the G.M. type of rotor cap that uses two small screws to fasten the rotor to the top of the distributor. Neither of the two screws were installed with any lock-tight, or other type of screw retention device. One screw came completely out from its location as the engine was running, and began to bounce around inside of the top portion of the distributor cap. During its travels it chipped the tops of most of the eight spark connectors at the top of the cap, scored the inside of the cap and top surface of the rotor, and was eventually ejected like a bullet out through the thick body of the side of the distributor cap. This damage was initially hidden from view because it was located exactly at the back side of the distributor right up near to the glass bulkhead window. SEE photos below.
It is currently not known if any other components were damaged.
Robert
Does the distributor shaft turn evenly as the engine is being cranked over?
On the older GM rotors, I used only star washers for screw retention although they typically came with a split lockwasher.
If the distributor still turns with the engine, you should be building oil pressure with a mechanical gauge. Some electric gauges don't show a reading while the engine is being cranked.
Maybe l your damage is limited to the cap and rotor.. I believe MSD makes an HEI tower cap in the smaller diameter that you need.
On the older GM rotors, I used only star washers for screw retention although they typically came with a split lockwasher.
If the distributor still turns with the engine, you should be building oil pressure with a mechanical gauge. Some electric gauges don't show a reading while the engine is being cranked.
Maybe l your damage is limited to the cap and rotor.. I believe MSD makes an HEI tower cap in the smaller diameter that you need.
Robert S.
GT40s Supporter
Engine Still Exhibiting Symptoms
It now appears we were not that lucky.
Upon start-up, the engine idle speed was merely 500 rpm, and the engine struggled at that speed. The normal, and programmed idle speed was 930 rpm, and the engine galloped between 930 and 1,150 due to cam. Now there was misfiring and ruff engine between 2,000 and 2,400 rpm, along with slow throttle response. In addition, the spark plug wiring is properly connected.
Above 3,000 RPM, the engine was happier. However, the distributor was not moved, and the ECU programming was not changed, thus we've concluded that the distributor module below the rotor was likely damaged by the incident either from the sudden partial stopping or reduced speed of the distributor which snapped both the round and square pins, or perhaps by some high voltage, or both. We have ordered a completely new dual sync distributor with brass cam gear. Once installed, it will either eliminate the engine symptoms and correct the idle and timing, or it will not. If it changes nothing, we will be able to eliminate it and move on to the next component. We may receive the new parts on Tuesday or Wednesday.
Thanks, Robert
It now appears we were not that lucky.
Upon start-up, the engine idle speed was merely 500 rpm, and the engine struggled at that speed. The normal, and programmed idle speed was 930 rpm, and the engine galloped between 930 and 1,150 due to cam. Now there was misfiring and ruff engine between 2,000 and 2,400 rpm, along with slow throttle response. In addition, the spark plug wiring is properly connected.
Above 3,000 RPM, the engine was happier. However, the distributor was not moved, and the ECU programming was not changed, thus we've concluded that the distributor module below the rotor was likely damaged by the incident either from the sudden partial stopping or reduced speed of the distributor which snapped both the round and square pins, or perhaps by some high voltage, or both. We have ordered a completely new dual sync distributor with brass cam gear. Once installed, it will either eliminate the engine symptoms and correct the idle and timing, or it will not. If it changes nothing, we will be able to eliminate it and move on to the next component. We may receive the new parts on Tuesday or Wednesday.
Thanks, Robert
I suppose it could be possible that the hall effect trigger wheel got tweaked when the rotor jammed up in the cap and probably shot bits down into it..
Either way, your engine runs and most likely has good oil pressure or you surely would have reported that. A few hundred dollars is a lot smaller than a few thousand, but still the teething pains of a new car can be wearing on you...
Either way, your engine runs and most likely has good oil pressure or you surely would have reported that. A few hundred dollars is a lot smaller than a few thousand, but still the teething pains of a new car can be wearing on you...
Re: Engine Failure ?
I took nearly the same picture as you did right after I took ownership. Teething pains...
Good luck!
I took nearly the same picture as you did right after I took ownership. Teething pains...
Good luck!
Quick Question did you transfer the wires from the old cap to the new one, Or put these in from the manual ??? Almost sounds like these may be in the wrong firing order as with the cams being changed on these there are 2 choices, And this sounds about right for having it switched. Be nice to be that simple. Wally
Robert S.
GT40s Supporter
Oil and Hall Effect Reply
Thanks Randy,
Yes, my eyes are often glued to my gauges. It's not a fascination of mine, but merely an attempt to learn the normal operating pressures and temps.
Now, I try not to put my ignorance on display too often - why give critics more ammo - but will make another exception here. The HALL EFFECT you mentioned was not only a surprise to me, but for a short while it was a source of some entertainment. I cannot write about it with any certainty, since it remains elusive, i.e., I'm still dumb as a rock on it.
However, I know it regulates engine vacuum. I know where vacuum is gathered and resides, and I know its use for carburetion, but I am no expert on those subjects either.
The first couple of times I drove my GT40, having never driven one before, I began to hear funny noises in the form of a whistling. Not a loud obnoxious whistle, but more of a pleasing type of musical whistle. This seemed to occur as I began to downshift at lower speeds to come to a stop at an intersection. It was a musical whistle that lacked only a melody to follow. When I inquired of my mechanics, they said even new cars have them, they regulate the vacuum, are controlled by the ECU, and they are usually not heard due to modern car intake runners, front engine compartments and large air cleaners.
I learned that sometimes they are in distributors, but my hall effect valve is mounted toward the front of my intake manifold, with orifice pointing in the opposite direction from the distributor. I do have eight separate throttle bodies for my injection, and the ECU controls the sequential FI, but that is all I know on that matter as well.
Remaining in the dark for the most part, but still grasping to learn. :idea: Robert
Thanks Randy,
Yes, my eyes are often glued to my gauges. It's not a fascination of mine, but merely an attempt to learn the normal operating pressures and temps.
Now, I try not to put my ignorance on display too often - why give critics more ammo - but will make another exception here. The HALL EFFECT you mentioned was not only a surprise to me, but for a short while it was a source of some entertainment. I cannot write about it with any certainty, since it remains elusive, i.e., I'm still dumb as a rock on it.
However, I know it regulates engine vacuum. I know where vacuum is gathered and resides, and I know its use for carburetion, but I am no expert on those subjects either.
The first couple of times I drove my GT40, having never driven one before, I began to hear funny noises in the form of a whistling. Not a loud obnoxious whistle, but more of a pleasing type of musical whistle. This seemed to occur as I began to downshift at lower speeds to come to a stop at an intersection. It was a musical whistle that lacked only a melody to follow. When I inquired of my mechanics, they said even new cars have them, they regulate the vacuum, are controlled by the ECU, and they are usually not heard due to modern car intake runners, front engine compartments and large air cleaners.
I learned that sometimes they are in distributors, but my hall effect valve is mounted toward the front of my intake manifold, with orifice pointing in the opposite direction from the distributor. I do have eight separate throttle bodies for my injection, and the ECU controls the sequential FI, but that is all I know on that matter as well.
Remaining in the dark for the most part, but still grasping to learn. :idea: Robert
Robert S.
GT40s Supporter
Those Embarrassing Photo Moments
Kevin, you too, huh.
I have to force myself not to become angry with the negligence, stupidity, lazziness, and poor quality of work that many companies and individuals are almost proud to put on display. Not using lock-washers, or equivalent for a fast spinning primary component on a vibrating gasoline race engine fits all of the above in my simple mind. I just keep focussing on how fortunate we all are to have a GT40, I count my blessings, and it often keeps me from doing and saying things I may regret . . . :laugh:
Thanks for sharing that tidbit of kindred GT40 spirit. Robert
Kevin, you too, huh.
I have to force myself not to become angry with the negligence, stupidity, lazziness, and poor quality of work that many companies and individuals are almost proud to put on display. Not using lock-washers, or equivalent for a fast spinning primary component on a vibrating gasoline race engine fits all of the above in my simple mind. I just keep focussing on how fortunate we all are to have a GT40, I count my blessings, and it often keeps me from doing and saying things I may regret . . . :laugh:
Thanks for sharing that tidbit of kindred GT40 spirit. Robert
Robert S.
GT40s Supporter
Distributor Wiring Paths
Wally,
I was not present on the occasion when the new cap and rotor arrived, but my mechanic assured me he checked the SP wire paths twice or more. The moment we install the new complete distributor, we'll learn more about the whole picture of circumstances, and I remain hopeful for my mechanic's sake that a wiring mistake will not be one of the problems.
Thanks, Robert
Wally,
I was not present on the occasion when the new cap and rotor arrived, but my mechanic assured me he checked the SP wire paths twice or more. The moment we install the new complete distributor, we'll learn more about the whole picture of circumstances, and I remain hopeful for my mechanic's sake that a wiring mistake will not be one of the problems.
Thanks, Robert
Robert S.
GT40s Supporter
Hi Robert If you have the Cam Card for your engine it will have the firing order on it so there is no question that you have it correct. What you described was a lazy motor as this changes 4 cylinders thats the way they react, They run on 4 cylinders and are carrying the other 4 , Hope this is helpful information. Wally
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Robert S.
GT40s Supporter
Correction on Hall Effects
Randy,
I knew even less than I assumed I did.
I do not have Hall Effects, but rather magnectic pick-ups within the distributor case, for both cam position and crank position. So, it wasn't the hall effects whistling as I incorrectly assumed in prior recent post, it was the Idle Air Control, AKA IAC.
Sorry for my previous drival . . . . :shrug: :idea: :cry: :hanged:
Randy,
I knew even less than I assumed I did.
I do not have Hall Effects, but rather magnectic pick-ups within the distributor case, for both cam position and crank position. So, it wasn't the hall effects whistling as I incorrectly assumed in prior recent post, it was the Idle Air Control, AKA IAC.
Sorry for my previous drival . . . . :shrug: :idea: :cry: :hanged:
Mhhhm
a Hall effect valve regulating the engine vacuum, creating an musical whistle ( may be playing "STARS AND STRIPES").
Sorry for that, but i had such good laugh. You don´t need to know but you already found out the correct reason, but your mechanic should know better.
Anyhow check out here
Hall effect sensor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Magnetic pickup is basically just another terminologie for what it is
hopefully the new dizzy will correct the failure. if i remember correctly, Cliff Beer posted some about double failures of that type of dizzy and he went back to another solution, may be he can chime in.
May not hurt to double check the plug wiring and also using new spark plugs.
TOM
a Hall effect valve regulating the engine vacuum, creating an musical whistle ( may be playing "STARS AND STRIPES").
Sorry for that, but i had such good laugh. You don´t need to know but you already found out the correct reason, but your mechanic should know better.
Anyhow check out here
Hall effect sensor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Magnetic pickup is basically just another terminologie for what it is
hopefully the new dizzy will correct the failure. if i remember correctly, Cliff Beer posted some about double failures of that type of dizzy and he went back to another solution, may be he can chime in.
May not hurt to double check the plug wiring and also using new spark plugs.
TOM
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