Tragic accident in Germany.

[Russ Noble]

Trevor,

I'm sorry I can't agree that road conditions cause accidents. It's peoples inability to assess the road conditions and drive accordingly that cause accidents. Perhaps less emphasis on upgrading "dangerous sections of road" and more on upgrading "dangerous and incompetent drivers" would be cheaper and have more beneficial results. There is a worrying tendency in society now, particularly here in NZ, for everyone to look to the government to legislate for their safety and well being. There is a diminishing sense of personal responsibility and someone or something else always has to be blamed for their own stupidity. With that attitude noone learns and we are bringing up a generation of mollycoddled, incompetent, and thoughtless morons!

Now give me five minutes to get down off my soapbox and don my Nomex!

Good point about the seat material though.

All the best,

 

[David Morton]

Armco:
Single row armco on steel posts set in concrete are lethal to all low cars and especially motorcyclists.
Double row is far superior but costs about 60% ( my calculation) more.
Single row armco with stressed 'flat' panelling enclosing and concealing the upright steel posts under the armco is cheaper than the double row armco
and (IMHO as a motorcyclist) as effective as double row.
The energy areas on the bends on the roads around the Nurburgring now has the flat panelling underneath and I feel a bit happier not to be staring at vertical steel posts on the outside of every corner. There have been a few
motorcyclists at the N-ring who hit those posts when things went wrong and there may be a move to put the panelling on all single row armco in Germany.

 

[Paolo-LoveGT40 Modelworks]

so sad for Jurgen....this is a real tragedy.

My personal opinion is that the replica gt40 is at all as the original car..also in safety.
It is surely the same as if to drive a modern motorbike,with the adds u cannot be free to leave the bike while u fly away(when possible).
All of us dream and drive the car on public roads, but we always have to remember we are in 2006 and modern streets and vehicles are no longer as in 1966.
I still remember the story of simon winter when he crashed his nice blue gtd, from his tale he was travelling at low low speed,just touched an audi on slippery asphalt and anyway the crash was impressive.

safety in vehicles are improved too much today, and is not possible compare a race car from the 60s to a modern Suv or sedan car.
When we mention the word SAFETY about our beloved car we wellknow is impossible to hope that will be really safe.
In a crash as this one, also roll cages probably will not save jurgen from his destiny.

Too sad all this.

a pray for him and his family

Paolo

 

[Ross Nicol]

Russ
That attitude is alive and well here in Australia too. Fines from speeding including 3km/hr in excess of the speed limit are filling government coffers to an extent they now budget for the income.We have the same thing here where they blame the roads for tragic road deaths but as you say a competent driver will always drive within the conditions be it weather, traffic, road conditions etc. The Goverment will not support advanced driving courses for what I believe is fear of litigation. Of course what they have done is sent a message to all drivers, if they drive within the speed limit, that is safe, but there are times that conditions don't allow safety at! the speed limit. Just to take the " Somebody else must be to blame " attitude, I believe it is also the reason for a conspiracy theory being attached to a lot of tragic events. I witnessed an accident in my rear vision mirror yesterday and all I could think of is thank god I'm in front of it it. Finally they announced the arrival on the radio this morning how many lives are going to be saved by the new generation of cars fitted with traction control and how it's the biggest advance in cars since seatbelts were made compulsory. Time will tell.
I think cars with a lot of power like the 40 far exceed the abilities of some drivers. One of my friends was told by an instructor at the track that his GT40 had way too much power for his ability. I travel at the speed limit on public roads and leave speeding for the track, it's much safer.

Ross

 

[Keith]

. One of my friends was told by an instructor at the track that his GT40 had way too much power for his ability.
Ross

But that's presuambly why he was there! Your friend obviously knew that and wanted to improve his ability, so why did he (the instructor) state the obvious when that's exactly what he gets paid for??



A case of the green eyed monster getting the better of him perhaps?oke:

 

[Keith]

:squint: Ah, did he mean, like, he'd never ever be able enough even with training???

 

[Ross Nicol]

Yes that was what the instructor really meant.

 

[Trevor Booth]

Russ,
By road conditions I am referring to the lack of or poor maintenance, the unexpected hole, particularly on a wet night, inadequate signage at roadworks, substandard resealing that literally washes off the road in heavy rain, incomplete roadworks so wet and slippery that you cant walk on it, yet they open the road to vehicular traffic. You would be suprised how many collisions that it causes and how many times the Road Authorities get sued and lose big time. I can give you a list of cases 'as long as your arm' , so to speak. The best drivers in the world cant anticipate and or contend with these circumstances. I agree with Driver education, it is a proven road safety item, however, compulsory driver traing may lose the pollies votes, so they dont introduce it.

David,
I have seen the flat panelling in "staged" collisions and it is very effective if the bottom is loosely restrained by an horizontal cable attached to the base of the posts. I have seen some "staged" collisions with unrestrained flat panels and they were not much better than no panel. The flat panels are only of value if the ARMCO from which it is hung is standing out from the posts.

Ross,
The pollies are 'out of control' with traction control, it will be interesting to see if any benefits in safety are gained. BUT they wont keep the statistics!!

General
A lot of collisions that are statistically labelled as 'excessive speed' are in fact not caused by excessive speed but get labelled that way because they dont have any other appropriate box to tick. There is no box for "wet rainy night, large hole in pavement full of water just around the corner and unsighted by driver travelling at 60k"

A lot of collisions (as above) can be prevented by common sense, problem is, common sense is not very common.

 

[Pete McCluskey.]

I'M with you Ross, people in OZ and I suspect most other countries always have a blame list out. The problem is they are never on it.

It is far to easy to get a drivers licence. Any kid can answer a few simple questions, drive around the block and park, then walk away with a licence to drive something capable of 300 KPH. If they survive the next 10 years they may start to gain some competence. My recent trip to Europe opened my eyes to how much better European drivers were than Australians. I'm talking about not overtaking on the wrong side, getting back into the slow lane once having overtaken someone, allowing you to merge safely, and driving to the conditions.
Getting a car licence should be as difficult and encompass as much training and checks as it takes to get a Pilots licence. It will never happen of course.

Gee I think I'm starting to sound like an old Fart.......

My condolences also to Juergen's family and friends.

 

[Howard Jones]

I have heard of cases in the USA where people would show up at track days with 700 hp Cobra's and be politely asked not to participate with that car.

I think we should all have a second think about super powered GT40's. I really think that 500 is too much and much more that that is way too much.

I can't tell you how many really cool hot rods have been ruined by too much power.

Put in 400Hp if you must and spend the rest on brakes, suspension, roll cage, fire system and fuel cell . In the end I think most people would be happier.

 

[ChrisL]

I would go a step further and suggest that, not only are the Pollies immorally using the road toll to raise revenue, but it seems that they have no interest in reducing the road toll at all. That would result in killing the cash cow.

A government report was recently released showing how a significant reduction in youth fatalities could be made by simply legislating against new drivers carrying more than one passenger. The government acknowledged the report and then threw it away. Furthermore, they then commissioned a “bad science” study to show the result that they wanted to see. This study stated (in a multi million dollar TV ad) that the chance of being killed in a collision is doubled for each 5kmh increase in speed. This message has been plastered everywhere to the exclusion of ALL other safety messages. They then followed this with a speed-camera blitz that resulted in slowing everybody down by an average of 3kmh… and guess what. The fatalities actually went up. To make matters worse, the government began patting themselves on the back over what a good job their speed-cameras were doing in slowing down all drivers. Had they lost the plot or were they deliberately blind to the effects of speed-cameras?

This speed camera campaign has now been going on for over 4 years and it seems to me that it has produced three new types of drivers that did not exist previously.

The first is a driver that now believes that they are invincible as long as they are driving on or below the speed limit. Consequently they become oblivious to most other dangers on the road.

The second is the driver that believes that they are within their rights to block traffic in all lanes because it is somehow their duty to enforce the speeding laws. This results in traffic jams, short tempers and lots of agro. Not a safe state of mind to be in when in control of a vehicle.

Finally, there is the driver who sees no credibility in laws designed to raise revenue and has consequently lost all respect for all road laws and safety advice. These drivers are literally accidents waiting to happen.

What is the opposition doing about this government campaign you might ask? They are making some noises but the government quickly jumps on it with their false studies and accuses the opposition of being baby killers. Sadly we have a population here that is all too willing to swallow this propaganda hook line and sinker.

 

[Brett James-McCall]

Chris,
You've forgotten another type of driver that I regularly see on the road here in the UK: Blinkered or kneck cramp - they must have to be able to stare ahead with such concentration at the car in front that they have no appreciation of any road conditions around them.

Brett

 

[Toni]

Information about the accident

first a big SORRY about my bad english.
last time i meet Jürgen Schenten was 5 weeks ago at msc engineering.
The accident took place on the motorway 48 near Koblenz.
Jürgen took no Seatbelt to safe his life,but the passenger on the right did .
Jürgen was lying 20 meters away from the car.I have heard that the
passenger was unhurt with safetybelts.On the testdrive they make
a fine tuning of the fuel injection with a laptop on the passengers legs.
I think that i can help you with that information.
Jürgen was a very fast driver on the road,the same like me.
We now can think of the risk of driving at 300 km/h with a Gt 40.I do!!!

Regards : TONI KLUTH

 

[Ryan]

WE are but our own safety level.

Gentleman,

WE are but our own and only level of safety. When each driver steps into their car, they must be aware of the vehicles limits, the safety gears limits, drivers limits, and the surfacing, conditions, runout, ect. Failure to stay within these boundaries will result in a crash. Accidents happen when something outside your control happens that causes a crash.

WE can prevent crash's and injury as much as possible, take track days as learning experiences, upgrade and recharge an in car fire system, install roll cages, andd fuel cells. These are all very important modifacations.

When I purcahsed my valkyrie I KNEW before even taking delivery of the vehicle what would be required to update it's safety features. It has fiberglass floor, no firewall, no seats, and no cage.

To rectify this I have been working on a full cage, seatbelt bar, race belts and seats, as well as an aluminum floor and firewall attatched to the roll cage and frame, as well as a fuel cell.

Safety should be number one in our minds on the street and on the track. WE thread a dangerous needle by building and operating a race car on the street, one that can instantly become our coffin.

Understand your limits, the cars limits, the surface of the road, the drivers around you. Prepare your car as if it was GOING to be involved in a 150 MPH crash. A 70 mph head on collision can happen at any time on any road, do the math.

WE are car builders, racers, engineers, drivers, but first and foremost we are father's, son's, daughters and members of our communities and must understand the safety in the shop before reaching for speed on the highway.


God bless the family and the lives he touched.
I do not know of the man, or of the family but when one dies doing what they loved we must embrace their passing as a lesson and move forward with the knowledge from their mistake.

Drive fast, drive smart, drive with passion>>>!

 

[Kristian Wraae]

I have never understood why some people refrain from using seatbelts.

 

[Ryan]

It's not a good idea!

 

[Keith]

Toni your English is fine and light years better than my German, danke for the information and sorry about your friend...

 

[Pat]

Thank you Toni. Your response was most helpful for those of us looking for insights that we may apply to prevent another such tradegy.
Do you have any information as to what caused the accident?

 

[Toni]

Statement from the police

Jürgen Schenten drove the A 48 in direction Koblenz.After shortly raining,
the motorway was wet in pices.On a long uphill righthander curves,his car
go sideways.He hit the left barierer two times and then the right.Jürgen
was lying some meters downstairs behind the right barrier.His head was so
badly injured that his dead comes soon.The car burst into flames .
It is a terrible situation for us on our meeting at the Nürburgring this
weekend.

Regards: TONI KLUTH

 

[Pat]

Thank you for the follow up Toni. This is such a tradegy.

It appears that we should add consideration to secondary fuel caps in addition to the stock Monza fittings to our CAVs. I wonder if that was the fuel source for the fire. The fuel cell bladder containers appear intact.

Thoughts and prayers to the family and friends of Juergen.