why I think car manufacturers are stupid

[Jim Rosenthal]

This is not about a Ford, full disclosure, although no doubt they can be as stupid as anyone. This is about my Toyota Tacoma, which was built in California, by the way. It is a 2008 model.

I love Toyota trucks. The predecessor of this truck (a 1998 Tacoma) would still be driving if someone hadn't bent it into a pretzel shape with me inside of it and landed me in the hospital in 2007. Anyway, after I recovered from all that, I decided to replace my 98 Tacoma (which only had 200K miles on it and ran perfectly) with a new one. This was in late 2007, when things were already going soft with the truck market due to high fuel prices. I special-ordered an 08 Tacoma, 2wd, stick, 4cyl. The only options I wanted were cruise control and intermittent wipers, but the cruise and wipers only come in a package called the SR5 group- along with a lot of cheap trim, power locks etc, which I didn't want. I tend to keep vehicles a long time and all that complicated stuff breaks and is hard to repair. I would rather not have it.

The cost of the SR5 package is $2500. The cruise control is offered at $400, which was fine with me, but when the dealer tried to order it that way, Toyota declined to do it. The intermittent wipers weren't offered at all- except as part of the SR5 package. To their credit, the dealer tried hard to get me to buy the SR5 option, even discounting it to $1600 or so, but I didn't need all that other stuff. So I just bought the truck with no options.

The first thing we took care of was the intermittent wipers. The little circuit that works them is actually in the switch, which is on the steering column. Take out the old switch, put the new one in, and you're done. All the wiring is already in there. The switch is the brains of the outfit. Total cost $150.

Today we took care of the cruise control. Cost to find out that factory CC can easily be added to non-CC Toyotas: $30 on web (probably could have found this out for free, but I decided to support a web site which lets you decide whether you want to pay for the answer you got. Worth it, too.)

Cost of CC switch, clutch safety switch, and harnesses: $120

Labor to install: $180 (again,not difficult, but required a few tools I don't have and anyway I like to support my local independent shop)

Driving your truck down the road with factory cruise control which you bought and installed yourself (with help) for $300: priceless.

I would have happily paid Toyota five or six hundred dollars to have these on the truck when I bought it. I think if you turn down money to spend an hour or two activating circuits which are built into every Toyota and just have to be woken up by installing the relevant switchgear (it would have been cheaper for them since they would have only had the wheel off once and they get the tech's labor at wholesale) you are stupid. What do you guys think?

In the meantime, I'm going for a ride. And playing with my new toy.

 

[Randy V]

Spot on...

I've got a Sunroof in my car (which I would never buy alone) as it was the only way to get the heated seats.

Which brings me to another complaint - Heated Seats. Why are they only available with leather interior? I would much rather had cloth interior. Cooler in the summer, warmer in the winter..

BTW - This is in a 2007 Toyota Camry Hybrid - also mfgr'd in the USA.

 

[RichardH]

Just changing a lightbulb in a modern car can be a nightmare - some of the new Renaults need a wing or the front bumper removed. It is not an owner option anymore. A bit silly as, by law, you have to have a spare bulb set in the car - you just cant fit them.........

 

[Ron Earp]

The only options I wanted were cruise control and intermittent wipers, but the cruise and wipers only come in a package called the SR5 group- along with a lot of cheap trim, power locks etc, which I didn't want. I tend to keep vehicles a long time and all that complicated stuff breaks and is hard to repair. I would rather not have it

Adn ditto what Randy said.

Why do manufacturers think that if you want, say navigation, integrated phone, heated seats, and some other nice stuff you must want a sunroof? Every "luxury" car (Audi, BMW, Acura, Volvo) my wife and I have bought has had a sunroof. Number of times we've used four sunroofs? Zero.

I can't stand this practice. And one of the companies that used to not do it 20 years ago, BMW, is now one of the biggest offenders.

What happened to the good old days of the big three where you could essentially build your car how you wanted it?

And to see this practice in use in a really bad way go try and build a Ford, Dodge, or GM truck how you like it - for me that was standard cab, 2WD, diesel, six speed. Good luck.

 

[Darnel A.]

Volume, cost, complexity, quaility, inventory.

The Manufacturer knows the take rate of each of the options (for example, if the take rate is 3% for CC. 3% for Heated Seats, they can be lumped together in a package and get a 6% take rate) So, the volume purchased of these components have doubled , and the price can be negotiated lower based on increased Volume from the Suppliers. If the components were ala carte, the price would increase for each, substantially.

Complexity adds cost of assembly in the Plant. By reducing the complexity of the vehicle, less mistakes are made during assembly, so the Quality improves. Also, I can have better control Inventory since the take rate for this "Luxury" package is pretty consistant, allowing for 'Just in Time' delivery of components, thereby lowering the cost of holding Inventory.
If the vehicle has 6 separate options which could be ordered separately, the variation would drive 36 different combinations of vehicles being built. Think about that! How can you keep track, quailitywise of 36 different vehicles! (Remember the Quality in "the Good Old Days", not so good?)

Also, as a high perceived value package, the Dealer can profit or bargain with the cost of the package.

Darnel

 

[Jim Rosenthal]

True. For everyone like me, who will refuse the option group, thousands of people will just shrug and accept it. However, there ought to be a better way to do this: if I have it right, when you buy a Porsche, you get to specify the options you want more or less exactly. (correct me if I am wrong, please)

Maybe they feel that allowing people to pick the options they want- and only those options- they would be hurting themselves financially. My thought on that is that someone with an actuarial turn of mind could figure out the numbers and come up with a way to make groups of options more attractive financially, thus providing an incentive to order more than one or two. And for stubborn types like myself, you'd still have the option to get just what you wanted.

As I heard years ago from a military friend, I am probably having a logic attack.

 

[Alex]

True. For everyone like me, who will refuse the option group, thousands of people will just shrug and accept it. .

More like tens of thousands :lipsrsealed:

I remember when my dad bought his last car - infiniti dealership convinced him to pay an extra $1200 for a "special wax that would never wear off" and "permanent rust proofing".

Too bad he didn't listen to me; 3yrs later his car was oxidized and I had to spend 20hrs compound&polishing it; 7yrs later it's all rusted underneath

Summary - most people are stupid and lazy =)

 

[David Sturch]

Jim,

Darnel said it right. You will also find that Porshe builds about 10 cars an hour not 55 or 60 like they do here. There is no money in a bare bones truck.
Dave

 

[Doug S.]

What happened to the good old days of the big three where you could essentially build your car how you wanted it?

I wonder the same thing, too, Ron. My mother drove a private contract rural mail route in SW KS, 94 miles a day on dirt roads. The USPS has rather strict requirements regarding things like interior volume, etc., and so my mom regularly special ordered Fords from the nearest Ford dealership 32 miles away. Sometimes things didn't go so well, like the Fairlane with the small 260 V-8 and 3 speed/overdrive transmission.....I tried to get her to order the 4 speed, but I was just a hot-rod crazy kid and she didn't want any part of that. In the end, after the 3rd time the tranny gave up, we found out the 3 speed w/overdrive was designed for the straight 6 engine, not to withstand the torque of the 8. She did, however, always specify the factory 2 tone paint job on all her mail route cars so that she could have a white top to keep the car cooler during the hot days.

Today I have a different issue.....my '94 Mazda has a very wimpy battery clamp and when it started to fail I went to the local auto parts store to buy a replacement, having replaced battery cables many times on my Fords. Well, they didn't have a part number, so I went to Mazda. Guess what--the battery cables aren't replacable, they are part of a $600 wiring harness....now, what head-up-his-U-know-what engineer decided to design a high volume replacement part so that it costs $600?????? Same thing with the rain seal on the heretofore affectionately mentioned "sun roof".....it started to leak in the rain, I went to Mazda for a replacement gasket, looked very much like a bicycle tire tube to me. Not available, only as a unit with the glass for $260.

I have over 250,000 miles on that Mazda now without any major engine problems, but I'll never own a Mazda again. I mention this every time I have to go to Mazda for parts.....they listen and smile, then I'm sure they talk about me after I walk out :thumbsdown: .

Common sense seems to have gone out the window in search of ever higher corporate profits!

Doug

 

[Darnel A.]

More like tens of thousands :lipsrsealed:

I remember when my dad bought his last car - infiniti dealership convinced him to pay an extra $1200 for a "special wax that would never wear off" and "permanent rust proofing".

Too bad he didn't listen to me; 3yrs later his car was oxidized and I had to spend 20hrs compound&polishing it; 7yrs later it's all rusted underneath

Summary - most people are stupid and lazy =)

Keep in mind, because of U.S. Monopoly Laws, Dealers are businesses independent from the Manufacturers. So, whatever Pixy Dust the Dealers sell you, don't blame the Manufacturer of the car! It's in your best interest to do your own research on the Dealer and the Salesperson you do business with!



Darnel

 

[Ron Earp]

if I have it right, when you buy a Porsche, you get to specify the options you want more or less exactly. (correct me if I am wrong, please)

The other guys have it right. Volume, price, and profit. If only 5% of the customers order a 2WD six speed diesel, and then to further than only 2% of manual buyers will order a standard cab, then you've got a loser on your hands with respect to that configuration profit. Might be why Ford and GM were less flexible on truck builds than Chrysler - Chrysler ain't making any money, Ford could barely do so, and GM is trying to become profitable.

Porsche is in a different place. They are very profitable and building far fewer cars, so, sure, they can option up things individually. And why shouldn't they? You're paying a fooking arm and a leg for the Pcar.

 

[Rick Muck- Mark IV]

Ron,
Ford has done away with manual Trans in the Super Duty (F250/550) trucks for the 2011 model year (2010 emissions, confused yet?) as the "take rate" does not support the MILLIONS it costs to EPA certify the powertrain combo.

The days of "have it your way" have gone the route of the caburetor...................

 

[Ron Earp]

Ron,
Ford has done away with manual Trans in the Super Duty (F250/550) trucks for the 2011 model year (2010 emissions, confused yet?) .

Yep, and it was gone long before that for standard cab 2wd versions. Around 2003 if I am correct. You can still get a manual right now but it comes with 4x4 and a huge cab, all that sheet I don't want. I suppose I'll have my Lightning converted to a manual and enjoy that.

 

[David Sturch]

Doug & Ron,

Doug for a car this 16 years old I think you are doing pretty good. You'll find with the newer cars if the wiring start's to degrade it will be even more money than the old OBDI system.

Ron when your ready for a new truck I think RCR will build you a custom hauler. I was thinking along the lines of the 6.6L Isuzu Turbo Desiel with an Onex 6 speed manual box. You should be able to take both cars to the track.
Dave

 

[Jim Rosenthal]

Yeah, not to hijack my own thread, but why doesn't someone build a SMALL diesel truck like they do overseas? I know Toyota builds them, but they aren't sold over here. I love my gasoline Tacoma but if a diesel version came along I'd clean her out, polish her up, and buy the same thing in a diesel small truck. Hell, that might get me all the way to retirement.

 

[Cliff Beer]

Yup, it's called "market based pricing" in the terminology of sales and marketing. Basically, it means that the price for the option (including the method of offering it) is dictated by what the market will pay for it, and has absolutely nothing to do with the costs associated with the option. The point is to not let a perceived "mark-up" on the associated option costs impose any kind of false cap on what consumers might pay for it.

As others have stated, the reasons it's not so expensive to install these options after the fact is because the needed production efficiencies require that the option is essentially pre-installed anyway - you just don't have the switch for example that says "intermittant wiper" but everything other than the switch is already there so the production line process doesn't need to change for 10,000 different combinations of options. The manufacturer is betting (usually correctly) that you'll just go ahead and take the option and pay the market price.

Similarly, the reason options are sold in packages is because it's more efficient to organize from a production standpoint - if there's only four different option packages to deal with, that's a whole lot easier than 10,000 potential different combinations if each option is separately optionable! Production costs are lower.

How the manufacturers select the various options to put into "option packages" is largely based upon market research in the field. They're trying to figure out the particular combinations of options sought by the consumer, in the fewest number of "packages," that allows them to charge the highest price using market based pricing.

So, net, they're not stupid, they're actually very astute about all this in an economic sense. The problem is that it's economics (production efficiencies) that's dictating outcomes, not convenient to the consumer.

It's just a big game....

 

[Dalton Veitch]

BTW, Porsche in their "old" days, before Dr Wiedekin upgraded them from hand-built to mass production, used to provide a separate wiring loom in the build for each car depending on which of their options you ordered. This was rationalised, to a few looms (according to the market, export country, etc.) as all car makers have had to rationalise and package to some extent.

 

[Ron Earp]

Yeah, not to hijack my own thread, but why doesn't someone build a SMALL diesel truck like they do overseas?

Both Ford and Dodge had planned versions of the F150/1500 with diesels. I don't know what Dodge was going to use but Ford was going to use the European 4.4L V8 diesel. I would have definitely bought one of these trucks.

However, about a year ago both released news that the projects had been shelved more or less indefinitely.

 

[Rick Muck- Mark IV]

Yeah, not to hijack my own thread, but why doesn't someone build a SMALL diesel truck like they do overseas? I know Toyota builds them, but they aren't sold over here. I love my gasoline Tacoma but if a diesel version came along I'd clean her out, polish her up, and buy the same thing in a diesel small truck. Hell, that might get me all the way to retirement.

Jim,

It is coming...the Mahindra from India. Looks like an early-mid 70's Toyota and just about as developed! Let's face it, India is not known for vehicle dynamics!

The cost of powertrain certification makes small volume combinations difficult to do. The Ford F150 no longer comes in a manual transmission as the "take rate" did not support the costs involved. Sucks for those who really want a "hand-shaker" but that is the way of today. How about the $9000.00 2010 emissions costs added to heavy duty trucks (class 8, tractors, dumps, etc.) on top of the $7500.00 cost for the 2008 (2007 emissions) emissions equipment charge. Over $15,000 in three years totally unrelated to the product or costs of manufacturing. This has the heavy duty trucking industry in an uproar and has caused class 8 sales to drop over 50%.......over 80% in Europe!

 

[Daniel]

I don't know if this is the site you used but just in case here's a good Tacoma site I use for info about my 05.

2005+ Tacoma General - Toyota Forums :: Toyota Nation

You probably know by now or have just been lucky but the tailgates are quite weak. The 08 was reinforced but still be careful. Also the plastic tie downs are not too strong. You can add front D rings to the front bed bolts for stronger anchoring if you need it.

I went from a 91 to the 05 and while the new trucks are bigger (by a lot) in every dimension than the old truck, they kept the inside dimensions of the bed exactly the same.

My frame is starting to rust and Toyota has recalled a bunch of Tundras for rust problems so I'm wondering if it will be an issue on the Tacomas also.

The newer Tacoma is a decent truck but not 14 years ahead of my old 91. It would be nice if Toyota brought in the Hilux they sell in Australia.