747 crash in Afghanistan caught on video!

Rick Muck- Mark IV

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Saw this earlier.....the guess is weight/balance (cargo shift) issue removed control authority. Perhaps our esteemed Mr. Morton or one of our other heavy firsts can comment?

Nasty bit of action. Sad for the crew and it is amazing to see 100 tons of aircraft just "disappear".........................rather reminds me of the B52 video where the aircraft just collapses into itself.
 

Pete McCluskey.

Lifetime Supporter
Saw this earlier.....the guess is weight/balance (cargo shift) issue removed control authority. Perhaps our esteemed Mr. Morton or one of our other heavy firsts can comment?

Nasty bit of action. Sad for the crew and it is amazing to see 100 tons of aircraft just "disappear".........................rather reminds me of the B52 video where the aircraft just collapses into itself.

You are spot on I just heard on the news that the crew had radiod that the load had shifted just after take off.
 

Randy V

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I've read elsewhere that the plane was carrying military vehicles in it..
It must've been a few moments of sheer hell and terror for the crew!

Wow!

Sad for the crew.

But at least that a few less kilo's of H on the streets.

I must've missed something.. What are you referring to Mark? :huh:
 

Jim Rosenthal

Supporter
Aren't loads secured aboard aircraft? I thought they would be.

Years ago, in Norfolk, VA, a freighter capsized in her slip because the unloading crew did not pay attention to the weight distribution, and unloaded one side of the holds too quickly. As I recall, it happened during the night- it took some time for the ship to lean over beyond the recovery point and when the crews came in the next morning, she was lying on her beam ends in the slip. Took a while to right her, too.

A pilot friend sent me this video on FB yesterday. It is grim. If someone didn't secure the load, they paid a serious price for the mistake.
 
I've read elsewhere that the plane was carrying military vehicles in it..
It must've been a few moments of sheer hell and terror for the crew!



I must've missed something.. What are you referring to Mark? :huh:

I was being a Class A, A-hole Randy, using a subject like this to suggest that the only export from that region is Heroin.

I take it back now, rather than edit my previous post.
 
Aren't loads secured aboard aircraft? I thought they would be.

Yes... rumor on the inter-web is that the loadmaster was on the aircraft. Sad to see it happen. Pretty weird to see a 747 in full stall such as that.

I cannot imagine what the pilot was thinking/feeling as he probably had the stick full forward with full thrust and it just slowed to a stop. That had to be a sicking feeling.... (No pun intended)

Kevin
 

David Morton

Lifetime Supporter
Rick - try 400 tons.
It can carry 175 tons of fuel so the gross weight will be a function of how far it is flying and how long the diversion might be.
It was a -400 freighter. Loads are palletised, the aeroplane has a mechanised rolling floor and the pallets locked into position automatically. The nose wheel sensing system will tell the pilot if the load is in trim or not in trim for take-off so the fact he taxied and took off would show his freight was all in the right positions.
The ADR and CVR will be replayed in about the next week so any speculation until those recordings are published is pure garbage. Wait until the facts are available.
 

Jim Rosenthal

Supporter
David, what else could cause a disaster like that other than having the loads shift on the cargo deck? and how could the loads shift if the pallets were locked into place?
 

Pat

Supporter
My guess is the load had vehicles. At least in military cargo flights (picured below), we chained them to the floor of the aircraft. I'd think the high angle climbout to avoid ground fire coupled with a tie-down failure caused it. Tragic...
 

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For those who don't know, I'm a pilot for American Airlines, and also a C-5 Galaxy pilot in the Air Force Reserves. Coincidentally, I'm also a trained aviation accident investigator, although fortunately I have never had to put that training to use.

There are very, very strict, written guidelines for securing all types of cargo in the C-5, and I would presume similar guidelines exist for 747 freighters. Our floor is strong enough to allow wheeled vehicles to drive directly on it, whereas the KC-10 tanker has to have pallets loaded on their cargo box floor, then vehicles can drive onto the pallets. I suspect the 747 freighter uses a similar system.

Based partially on conjecture, and partially on the statement that the crew radioed that the cargo had broken loose, I would suggest that it was secured improperly. The guidelines assume failure of individual tiedowns is possible, and thus there is lots of redundancy built in. I don't know what percentage of tiedowns would have to fail before wheeled cargo would break loose, but I suspect it would be rather a lot.

However, nothing can prevent a disaster if the tiedowns are installed incorrectly, or in insufficient numbers. I hesitate to cast aspersions unfairly, but it seems that a combination of crew loadmaster and/or ground loading crew error is likely the cause of this tragedy.

Having said that, does anybody remember when the same thing happened outside of Sacramento, CA some years ago? At the time, the general assumption was that the cargo shifted on takeoff, but the NTSB investigation later determined that the accident was caused by poor maintenance of the airplane; a critical bolt had failed in the elevator assembly, rendering the airplane uncontrollable in the pitch axis:

Poor maintenance blamed for Sacramento air crash - SFGate

Besides the fact that the crew died due to this mistake, it was the last straw for Emery Worldwide, and under heavy scrutiny from the FAA, management decided to pull the plug and shut down the whole aviation branch of the company (leaving one of my friends suddenly unemployed) rather than continue in the face of an increasingly (and justifiably) hostile government investigation into their rather shoddy practices.

So, given this example, the reasonable thing is to wait until the investigation is complete, and the true cause of the crash can be determined. At the end of the day, ultimately it's human error, but whether it was caused by the crew, ground handlers, or maintenance personnel remains to be seen.
 

Jim Rosenthal

Supporter
Would it be fair to say that pilot error is not likely to be the cause of this?

I had no idea that flying freight could be so dangerous. I guess flying people is in a sense safer as they are more likely to stay put in their seats. Of course, people do all sorts of OTHER stuff, as we've seen.
 
Would it be fair to say that pilot error is not likely to be the cause of this?

I had no idea that flying freight could be so dangerous. I guess flying people is in a sense safer as they are more likely to stay put in their seats. Of course, people do all sorts of OTHER stuff, as we've seen.

Another potential cause is runaway or incorrect pitch trim. I had that happen to me in the C-5 several years ago; we were in a turn, and when we rolled wings level, the airplane pitched nose-up and could not be made to fly level or descend even with the yoke full forward. The nose shot skyward, our airspeed plummeted, and we were well on our way to a full stall. We rolled it back into a steep bank and let the nose slice through the horizon to keep from stalling, found the problem, and corrected it. (It was caused by the other pilot, who had put excessive nose-up pitch trim in while maintaining level flight in a steep banked turn with full flaps and gear--DOH!)

It's possible that the crew set the initial pitch trim incorrectly on takeoff; they may have run it fully through from full down to full up during their preflight checks, and forgot to place it in the appropriate center-ish position for takeoff. Or it could have failed mechanically and runaway to the full nose up position after takeoff. Either of those could have been due to pilot error, or could have been corrected if they had seen it in time. So yes, there is a theoretical potential for a pilot error cause, but I would say that is highly unlikely.

As to the relative danger of flying freight versus passengers? Freight is MUCH more dangerous, I'd say. While major passenger airlines are top-tier organizations, freight operations run the gamut. Some are extremely professional organizations. Others are the basis for the oft-used descriptive phrase, "Fly-by-night operation". Some cargo carriers use ancient airplanes, and/or employ pilots and ground crew who can't get (or keep) a job at more respected companies, etc.

I know nothing about the company in question here (I have literally never heard of them) so it's impossible for me to formulate an opinion as to where they exist on the cargo hauler company spectrum. But the nature of cargo work often entails flying on the back side of the clock (boxes don't care when they travel--in fact the whole overnight package express business is formulated on the premise that the boxes are moving at night), and often requires flying into austere or hostile environments (Bagram is a far cry from Brussels, for instance).

Again though, speculation as to the cause is rather pointless right now. We just have to wait and see what the accident investigation reveals...
 
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