Current State of GT40 Market
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Seymour Snerd
Lifetime Supporter
Better yet I'd love it if someone with the authority would prune out all the not-about-Current State of GT40 Market posts (mine included). It was once a fairly useful thread for tracking sales.This thread should be moved to the Paddock.
In a way I have bought (and sold) one already. I owned a Ford GT.
The biggest road block to 'pulling the trigger' on a '40 is the 15 months or so it'd take to see it in my driveway...the exact factor you yourself mentioned when jousting with Rick.
In the meantime I'm sitting in a catch 22 situation...'sit here and do nothing, in which case I have no car NOR is one being built...or order the car and sit here for at least 15 months w/o possessing the car anyway!
My other concern these days is physically being able to get in and out of a '40 fifteen months from now...but, that's another story...
It will be less than 15 months I assure you.
Amen to that Alan.
Trying to bring it back to center with a relevant question here....
I bought my GT40 (CAV) for a modest price back in 2006 from a very nice gent on this forum located down in Georgia. The car was priced attractively partly because the paint wasn't that great and the drive train was pretty humble (Ford Racing 345hp crate engine and wrecking yard 016). It had a few problems like messed up shifter linkage, a grabby clutch, and missing bolts in the Kennedy adapter plate, yada yada....but overall a very nice car with no major problems.
I've driven it a fair bit but it still has well less than 10,000 miles on it. I have made some modest improvements such as beefing up the 016 with an LSD and strengthening plate, had a lot of the suspension and engine bay pieces powder coated to avoid corrosion, installed better uprights, basic stuff like that.
I'd like a little more power (who wouldn't??) and figure if I do that then I've got to go secure a G50 or ZF along with a bigger/better motor such as a Keith Craft 351-based stroker and all the induction/ignition whistles and bells. In all, that nut roll is likely to come to $20,000-30,000 USD.
So here's the (relevant) question - if I do that, what increase in resale value can I expect (everything else being equal)? I'm guessing I might not recover more than 30% of that outlay if I had to sell the thing. Thoughts?
Cliff,
I put a 351 stroker to a 383 for about $5,500. I had all of the other items like intake, mds and the like, so it wasn't all that much and you would probably get most of that back in a resale situation. If you spend 20-30k, I would say that you wouldn't get but a portion back on resale. Probably the same 5k in value.
I put a 351 stroker to a 383 for about $5,500. I had all of the other items like intake, mds and the like, so it wasn't all that much and you would probably get most of that back in a resale situation. If you spend 20-30k, I would say that you wouldn't get but a portion back on resale. Probably the same 5k in value.
Since a car's "worth" is determined by the sum of its parts and its overall condition, w/o knowing what you paid for the car + what actual $$$ you've spent in upgrades, there's really no way to determine what "30% of the total outlay" might be! Or are you just asking for opinions on what you'd recover with regard to just the engine & tranny upgrades themselves?
Seymour Snerd
Lifetime Supporter
I think the most direct way to figure that out is to answer two questions:
- What's it worth right now?
- What's it worth with those changes?
The first one sounds like a really tough question, but in a sense you know the answer because it's approximately what you paid for it plus some depreciated portion of what you've put in since. The second one is easier if (as I am assuming) your fixing up the drivetrain makes it a more-or-less "normal" nice CAV and I think we know roughly what they go for, right? Something like $60K-75K?
The other thing to consider is how easy it will be to sell in either state. Isn't it true that in its current somewhat "weak" state it would be difficult to find a buyer? Whereas if it were more like all the other CAVs then you are now exposed to that entire market? Sorta like the difference between selling a house that is a fixer vs selling one that is professionally staged?
I also wonder if you really have to spend that much to get closer to the center of gravity of the market. Yes a new RBTis $13K or whatever, but can you get a reasonable Porsche box for less? Do you really need the whole 500+ hp you get with a 351 stroker? Could you not fix up the existing block and rotating assembly with EFI and fancy heads and valve train and arrive at a "normal" CAV drivetrain that comes in at the low 400 BHP so that cheaper transaxle makes sense? Does that get you your "little more power?" Does that power really require a $13K transaxle? (I'm not familiar with the CAV market, but hope it isn't so dominated by mega-power 427 Windsors as the SPF market is).
<a few minutes later>
And I couldn't tell if you'd done something about the paint, but to "validate" the "after" price I think there can't be a buyer objection to esthetics: that's the "first impression" or "curb appeal" part of the sale so to make it a quick sale at market for a "normal" CAV it's got to have nice (not extravagant) paint and a good looking interior. But at worst you ought to be able to take care of that for $5K.
Also I see CA Motorsports listing a G50-01 for $7k.
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Mike
Lifetime Supporter
Why is that? What about the mega-power FE powered SPFs? I wouldn't call 500hp mega power either considering the number of cars that far exceed that straight off the showroom floor. A 1200 HP TT Ford GT maybe. My 500hp 427 is quite docile compared to some cars I've driven and ridden in. I'm sure a 400hp set up could be a lot of fun as well and I'm not sure I would spend thousands to upgrade to 500. I doubt one would realize much of a return when it came time to sell either.
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Robert S.
GT40s Supporter
Genuinely sorry I missed this thread. I've become too absorbed with my job and my GT40. I did note that the know-it-all egos raised their ugly heads again, and stifled the robust thought exchange.
I always wanted a thread on this topic. When I reviewed my thoughts though, I stumbled on what I desired to say, what the point was, and how best to say it without offending anyone. I inevitably always ended up without a plan or purpose, so I wisely said nothing.
The SPF 2291 is a Gulf, and it is an extra wide body like mine is. They have ordered a Roush 302 engine and a ZF trans for it, and they have a current desired target price of $160k when it's complete. The SPF 2299 is a standard body MKI Gulf roller that is currently priced at $116,113, which I believe is a reasonable price premium in lieu of waiting 9 months (A more realistic wait period than six months previously mentioned), though just my opinion.
I like the CAV GT40s, and I like Johan, the distributor, and RCRs – all decent cars, decent company and people. I did however, elect to buy a SPF, and believe it is generally the best for all the reasons already expressed in this thread.
Here's my attempt at expressing my opinion on GT40 values. This forum is the center of information for most of us. There are other sites that are occasionally interesting to visit, but this site is the richest in information, and best overall. However, I do not believe it is a proper place to attempt to sell a previously owned GT40. In addition, most all of the attempts at doing so likely harmed, or lessened the true value of previously owned GT40s.
I truly marveled for over a year now as people occasionally listed their GT40 for sale here, at mostly very low pricing - all brands. The natural tendency, or default, is to believe that the used GT40s should be treated the same as most all other cars and trucks are. I’m not sure that’s the correct thinking.
While it is true that customers can order new more traditional autos from the factory, most often they find one at a dealership. But the point is that an individual never has to wait for six months or much longer to receive their car. Nor do they have to have an engine built, buy a trans, and wheels and tires.
So, my sense is that these wonderful cars we love do require much work by the buyer, much planning and problem solving too, and especially dealing with the engine and trans purchase and install. I truly believe that the GT40 owners are unintentionally both their own worst enemy, and the single most prevalent reason that our vehicles do not often garner what should be a much higher fair value price.
Adding to the above discussed circumstances is another strange humanistic tendency that many owners, and/or would-be owners exhibit: they tend to low-ball sellers, and actually chide and heckle others attempting to sell their GT40s, and this is especially true when some of the sellers arrive at their senses, and actually raise their price during the for sale period. Those who protest tend to harm value prices too.
Okay then, I gave them wings: My opinions that is. Let’s all keep our mothers out of this discussion please.
NOTE: Any misspellings, grammar errors, and/or punctuation errors are only present because of electronic flukes during transmission over the Intenet, or because of the three cooharts active on this site that often hang-out and plot together behind the green door.
Robert
I always wanted a thread on this topic. When I reviewed my thoughts though, I stumbled on what I desired to say, what the point was, and how best to say it without offending anyone. I inevitably always ended up without a plan or purpose, so I wisely said nothing.
The SPF 2291 is a Gulf, and it is an extra wide body like mine is. They have ordered a Roush 302 engine and a ZF trans for it, and they have a current desired target price of $160k when it's complete. The SPF 2299 is a standard body MKI Gulf roller that is currently priced at $116,113, which I believe is a reasonable price premium in lieu of waiting 9 months (A more realistic wait period than six months previously mentioned), though just my opinion.
I like the CAV GT40s, and I like Johan, the distributor, and RCRs – all decent cars, decent company and people. I did however, elect to buy a SPF, and believe it is generally the best for all the reasons already expressed in this thread.
Here's my attempt at expressing my opinion on GT40 values. This forum is the center of information for most of us. There are other sites that are occasionally interesting to visit, but this site is the richest in information, and best overall. However, I do not believe it is a proper place to attempt to sell a previously owned GT40. In addition, most all of the attempts at doing so likely harmed, or lessened the true value of previously owned GT40s.
I truly marveled for over a year now as people occasionally listed their GT40 for sale here, at mostly very low pricing - all brands. The natural tendency, or default, is to believe that the used GT40s should be treated the same as most all other cars and trucks are. I’m not sure that’s the correct thinking.
While it is true that customers can order new more traditional autos from the factory, most often they find one at a dealership. But the point is that an individual never has to wait for six months or much longer to receive their car. Nor do they have to have an engine built, buy a trans, and wheels and tires.
So, my sense is that these wonderful cars we love do require much work by the buyer, much planning and problem solving too, and especially dealing with the engine and trans purchase and install. I truly believe that the GT40 owners are unintentionally both their own worst enemy, and the single most prevalent reason that our vehicles do not often garner what should be a much higher fair value price.
Adding to the above discussed circumstances is another strange humanistic tendency that many owners, and/or would-be owners exhibit: they tend to low-ball sellers, and actually chide and heckle others attempting to sell their GT40s, and this is especially true when some of the sellers arrive at their senses, and actually raise their price during the for sale period. Those who protest tend to harm value prices too.
Okay then, I gave them wings: My opinions that is. Let’s all keep our mothers out of this discussion please.
NOTE: Any misspellings, grammar errors, and/or punctuation errors are only present because of electronic flukes during transmission over the Intenet, or because of the three cooharts active on this site that often hang-out and plot together behind the green door.
Robert
Tim Kay
Lifetime Supporter
FWIW, IMHO, when talking about re-sale value (and I think it's been said before) it simply comes down to what is someone willing to pay at that particular time. There's no ryme or reason. If you're one of many on this forum that's been around a while you too have seen the value swings, and not just becouse of the economy. We've seen '40s that have sold higher than one would expect (I over paid when I purchased mine, no surprise there!) and we've seen '40s sell lower than expected. As said before, this vehicle is an emotional purchase for most and with that anything goes.
Along with that thought, if your in this GT40 thing for "value" turn away. I'd bet my '40 that most of us here could not recoup 80% of the investment, with mods, hours and maitnenance included. In my case, over the past 10 years I'd be lucky to get 30%. Of course not everyone here re-builds there 40 from the ground up, just say'in.
Tim
Along with that thought, if your in this GT40 thing for "value" turn away. I'd bet my '40 that most of us here could not recoup 80% of the investment, with mods, hours and maitnenance included. In my case, over the past 10 years I'd be lucky to get 30%. Of course not everyone here re-builds there 40 from the ground up, just say'in.
Tim
Hi Robert,
As a guy who actually bought a used GT40 by way of this site, from a guy on this site who wanted to sell it, I have a little first hand knowledge of the dynamics of the process.
Interesting perspective and points you have. I wouldn't have thought of that myself. Quite on the contrary, I, for example, specifically WANTED to buy a used GT40 from somebody on this site, primarily because of a) the generally very high level of GT40 sophistication of the forum participants and owners here, and b) more importantly, a trusted participant on this site was a much more appealing seller to me than a lesser known member of the public (who happened to own a GT40...) given the difficulties of buying a car which is generally not local to the buyer due to low production numbers and less easily viewed first hand.
In other words, I was willing to pay a premium to a seller of a used GT40 on this site over what I would have paid elsewhere, for the above reasoning/logic. So, from the seller's perspective it was economically advantageous to sell a used GT40 via this site.
Related, but secondarily, I have noticed over the years of being a participant here that, overall, the level of disclosure and fair dealing amongst the participants here is very, very high when it comes to buying and selling of cars and parts....higher than I see exhibited outside of this forum, and way, way higher than one would expect in the general population. Indeed, that is one of the very unique appeals of the site. So if perhaps a particular seller of a used GT40 on this site seems to gather some questioning comments or peculiar critique once in a while, it is perhaps only because the customary standards of disclosure and fair dealing are just that much higher here. That's just my personal experience and opinion.
And, of course, when one uses a public discussion forum (such as GT40s.com) for commercial sale of cars and related items then one, of course, opens themselves up to public questioning of the car/items being offered for sale....which likely is not the case in a private sale not made by way of a public discussion forum. If a seller decides to take advantage of the breadth and depth of the public discussion forum for marketing and advertising their wares, then they must accept the public nature of the typical back and forth between buyer and seller. That's just reasonable and to be expected. That doesn't mean that the pricing of the particular items/cars for sale here on this site needs to be, or should be, lower...it's simply a reflection of the nature of the forum being used for selling purposes, and the level of sophistication of the forum demographic. Personally, I think this puts upward pressure on pricing and, indeed, my willingness to pay a premium for a used GT40 purchased through this site than elsewhere is first hand evidence of that.
Just my $.02.
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Robert, interesting you stated this... I don't think there are a lot of know-it-alls or egos on this site... maybe you have found one or two but that is it. Just my opinion, most people are pretty reasonable.
/QUOTE]
Again, I have been watching prices here for years, it does not seem like prices are all that low. True, you cannot build a car for what you can often buy one here but it is also true that some of what you can buy here does not actually pass the true test when buyers complete the deal. I have seen more than a few cars change hands on this site only to then show up 12 months later with a list of issues and repairs. Similar to what is always true, you get what you paid for.
My formula, right or wrong, still seems to equate to this after watching the market since 1999.... Space-frame car that needs work is about 60K, space-frame car that is upgraded and quick on the track is about 75K... mono is usually around 80-95 depending on motor and quality... some cars seems to go for up to 110K based on options and quality. Much comes down to customization and what the buyer wants.
I have been challenged to find a completed and sorted car go for much above 110K but that may be me just not looking hard enough. Above 110K it seems that people decide to build their own and get options exactly what they want.
The last challenge that I think presents itself is that buyers who have never had a GT40 don't quite know what they are getting into. Unless you have had one, you might not know that a car with 7000 miles might be worth more than on with 200 miles.. it is because getting that car to work reliably for 7000 miles took lots of money and time. These things are so individualized that it takes time to sort them out and allow you to trust driving it for a while. That value seems to get lost; or at least I know I didn't fully understand it until I purchased one.
Just my thoughts on the matter
Robert S.
GT40s Supporter
Short, sweet and to the point. Bravo.
Kevin, You provided good thoughts to ponder. Thanks!
Cliff, I see you expressed decent thoughts in a highly organized fashion. I sense you must be a good barrister, for they write elegant briefs! Thanks.
Tim, I enjoyed your thought sharing too and cannot disagree with any of its content. Thanks.
Determining value of anything is difficult, and if you go one step further and attempt to define the elements that affect value, the riddle becomes exponentially less likely to be solved.
As noted by others, the process of deciding to purchase or to sell such a famous and traditional vehicle as a GT40, often involves emotional aspects. I've noted some previous sellers came upon hard times and decided to sell their car in a panic, and for less money.
I have been witness to many revelations of sorts concerning everything from home selling/buying to GT40 selling/buying. Many folk in a housing community who desired to sell their home were told by the experts (Realtors/Appraisers/Lenders) that pricing is way down due to short sales and foreclosures. So, they gave their home away for much lower than it's true market value. A very few home sellers that kept their homes like model homes, had a corner lot, or great lot, kept the faith, offered and sold their home for much more per square foot than any of the other folk did, all of whom depended solely on the "experts" and the neighborhood comps (History).
I remember reading last spring about a car auction that was planned in Monterey, California, which would include two very special GT40s, and one was p1074. The so-called experts, and journalists within the rare and famous vehicle market all predicted the sale of that car would bring 3 to 4 million. They were emphatic! They based their well thought out prediction on historic sales transactions. They were mere sheep, following the pack. The car brought $11M and broke all records for an original GT40.
What can be learned from the two examples, if anything, and was any of it applicable to any of us when buying or selling GT40s?
Thoughts will vary widely. Keep The Faith.
All good things to all, in all ways. Robert
Chris Duncan
Supporter
good post, I totally agree
GT40's is probably the best, most informed place to purchase a GT40