GT40 chassis / car manufacturers

[John W]

A small winge.

Why is it that especially in the GT40 arena, manufacturers are so keen to put down others ?

I'm astounded for example that the 3 or 4 monocoque manufacturers can't sit around a table and agree to help each other with mutual parts supply.
For example, if company A does the castings and the others buy them, rather than the others ripping them off by patterning the parts company A made.
Same goes for all the parts (wishbones, pressings, electrical, fittings, etc).

If these guys did this, each would get their tooling costs back much sooner, make the parts cheaper (so less need to make them themselves), being able to concentrate on building the cars.
Surely they'd be more productive and profitable than trying to do everything individually.

Theres little wonder that the companies don't want to supply individual parts, as they know they are very likely going to get copied by all and sundry.

Am I the only one who thinks like this ?
Should I get stronger medication ?
Or simply give up and go build something that manufacturers are happy to supply parts for to an individual customer...

Discuss

(p.s. I'd have put more smilies but Javascript is blocked here, so I can't)

 

[Martin]

Hi John,
I agree, it is dissapointing that within this close community of enthusiasts exists an atmosphere among manufacturers of distrust and non cooperation. I suspect that there is a long history behind it and that repairing relationships with eachother is not high on the list of priorities right now. For the consumer, it's a pity.
I Guess it comes down to a code of practice. If the unwritten rules of business etiquette are broken, then trust breaks down and we are where we are. Must have happenned somewhere down the line but i'm relatively new to this so it's just a hunch.
Martin

 

[Keith]

Good point John. As unfortunate as it is, this attitude prevails wherever there is a limited "faddish" market supporting a specialist industry. Small boatbuilding has very similar problems with plagiarism rife and small manufacturers going to extrordinary lengths to diss the "opposition". By contrast, the relevant activity on this board is quite restrained.

I learnt in business many years ago, that just because you have been around forever and you may have even invented the whole process (this is no jibe at anyone here) doesn't mean you have a right to survive in a competitive market place and no amount of barracking and internecine rivalry proves anything and mostly pisses off the customer base to boot. Ego is also a big player in this scenario where my shit is always bigger better and smellier than your shit.

I have always believed in "strategic partnerships" for small businesses, where various individual company weaknesses can become strengths for the whole, but I guess it takes trust and committment and not everyone has it.

There is one way forward of course - to raise the bar so high, your competitors can't even see it anymore, but even this will bring detractors, jealousy and criticism, but perhaps it's part of the process of a "free market economy"

 

John W,
Wow ! being in the fiberglass buiness, I could go on forever on this subject, but to keep peace, I wont. Two words that come to me are; ego and greed. AND, How many of us would love to say; "I own an original GT40 !"

 

[Simon]

I tend to agree.
With one or two notable exceptions, there is a certain amount of backbiting now and again. Never having been a manufacturer, I can only imagine what it's like for people in the business. Personally, I think business for ANY GT40 mfr is good for the industry as a whole, and will increase the size of the community and the chance for repeat work for all.
The Cobra MFR guys in the UK seem to keep their heads down on the cobraclub forum, they leave it to the owners to slate each others cars!

 

[Pat Buckley]

You make wayyyyy too much sense.

 

[Ian K]

Well, in some cases, things like wishbones may not easily be installed
on some chassis. I suspect Fran's wishbones will not mate with a
CAV, ERA or SPF chassis for example.

Ian

 

[John W]

Ian,
what I meant was those all making replica / near original monocoques for interchangeability. I realise Frans suspension is his own design, and the likes of CAV / ERA are different too.

To my knowledge we have SPF, Gox, David Brown, Mirage, whatever Roy Snooks will be called, and some others who supply supposedly original / replacement chassis (not sure they actually make them though).
They all are producing very similar stuff, and in some cases paterning each others work.

I have one of the above on order. Any of the other companies that I've spoken to will not sell me any parts, but will grab my hand off for anything I can give them should I choose to deal in this manner.

I just don't see why it has to be this way, as surely any sales are better than none, and sharing the work load has to benefit all. Currently it seems customers are locked in - or rather locked out - you have to buy all your parts from the chassis supplier because each will only supply to those who have brought a chassis from them...

I just thought I'd ask, see if it was only me that thought this was odd, or whether I'm the odd one

 

[Dimi Terleckyj]

Hi Guys
I have to wholeheartedly agree with the above comments.

I have and run my own business and whether I supply the whole installation or part only it is still a sale.

I am not greedy or stupid enough to deny myself income just because I did not get the entire job.

Often just doing a part of the job leads on to more work because my attitude was to help out on a part of the job.

A sale is a sale and can often lead to much more, just a shame these narrow minded manufacturers/suppliers can't understand this principle.

Dimi

 

[Chris Martino]

If they all shared the same parts - they'd all be the same.

Chris

 

[Marcus]

I do unterstand John´s wish. Only too well can I imagine his situation.
But you should bear in mind that with the mono-manufacturers cooperating in the way desired, this almost inevitably will bring price-fixing arrangements with it. And that so far has never been for the benefit of the customer. It´s called an oligopoly
But, after all, IMO another reason will always stand against it: When kicking in your contributions as a manufacturer you will always seek for appropriate compensation from the others being part of this group. And this will always remain a focus of argument.

Best,
Marcus

 

[Marcus]

BTW John, you might find this could possibly be another interesting source for parts:

BW Template



Best,
Marcus

 

[JimmyMac]

They all are producing very similar stuff, and in some cases paterning each others work.

John,
I should hope that they were producing 'similar stuff', however I can tell you that Mirage don't pattern off anybody's work as they are presently only building tubs and I believe that David Brown makes his own parts or procures them from reputable sources. As far as I know the others mentioned make very few foundry patterns, for example the Superformance pedal box is a steel fabrication and not an alloy casting as it should be.

When trying to buy parts I have also had the door shut on me a few times and I can understand this retisance as it can be a conflict, but I have also found out later that some of these sources gave me the ol' BS and did not have the parts anyway.

My advice is make your own, if you can achieve this, it will be time better spent than the searching and ease your frustrations.

 

[Jay Cushman]

Well I can tell you that the guys making exact monos can not keep anybody from buying others parts if they are building from original blueprints as everybodys stuff should interchange. If you buy an exact mono you should be able to buy any original or replacement part and put it on your car.

Lets be clear, I have a horse or two in this race. I work on original cars and know most of the companies mentioned in this thread. I make alot of original replacement parts and own alot of original items. I have sold parts to guys with every brand of mono listed here. I have also talked and/or dealt with most of the guys building and selling these tubs and found them all pleasant to deal with. I think its fairly normal to want to sell all your parts to a customer who bought your chassis but I have not seen the side of any of these guys where they would not sell somebody something they had for sale. I know I have never said no to anybody who needed my items.

I think you can take Superformance out of this equation as they build whole cars and very few parts of their car will actualy fit an original car or the other way around. I have a mono coming from both GOX and David Brown at this moment and both know I will put my parts on them as well as parts from original cars and some items from each of them and neither has ever expressed any problems at all. I have customers getting monos from Mirage and buy my stuff and know first hand that Ray and Steve have no problems with any of this as they are concentrating on the tubs right now. Goran at GOX is very busy right now making so much of the car hes just not ready to open the doors to the store yet. He wants to be ready to deal with the public when his stuff is ready. Goran likes the challenge of the project more than the monetary end of it. I have sold Roy Snook parts in the past but have no idea if hes building cars but would expect no issues doing business with him either.

I guess my point is all these guys have a huge investment in GT40s and are very busy at work. My guess is all of them at the right time would be glad to sell you whateer you need if you give them a chance. I know I wanted a near exact copy of an original GT40 for 20 years and realy had no options. Now anybody can buy a tub built from original blueprints at a fair price and should be thankfull to those guys on this list for their dedication to job very few could ever get done let alone at a realistic price. If anybody with an exact mono needs original replacement parts and has any problems getting something let me know and I will do my best to supply them no matter who makes the items.

Thanks,

Jay Cushman

 

[JimmyMac]

Jay,
Well said.

 

[Roy Snook]

Interesting views, some incorrect facts I believe. Jay, I don't recall purchasing any parts from you, can you remind me what I bought from you?.
Jimmymac, Quote " that Mirage don't pattern off anybody's work " did you/Ray& your team not procure one of my roof pressings and use it to pattern from?, .
I have helped people with mono parts, 2 U K cars restored with my parts no problem, but I have encountered some very dishonest people who will go to any lenghts to either pattern, borrow and not return or steal what I have produced from scratch and it does make you extremely cautious and then reluctant to supply parts.

 

[JimmyMac]

Interesting views, some incorrect facts I believe. Jay, I don't recall purchasing any parts from you, can you remind me what I bought from you?.
Jimmymac, Quote " that Mirage don't pattern off anybody's work " did you/Ray& your team not procure one of my roof pressings and use it to pattern from?, .
I have helped people with mono parts, 2 U K cars restored with my parts no problem, but I have encountered some very dishonest people who will go to any lenghts to either pattern, borrow and not return or steal what I have produced from scratch and it does make you extremely cautious and then reluctant to supply parts.

Roy,

Firstly I am a customer of Mirage.

I have never met nor spoken to you so how could I buy one of your roofs ? In fact I bought two top pressings from a well known maker.
Also you have never supplied parts to Mirage as far as I am aware.

There is a roof lying in the store at Mirage for Doc Watson's car and I believe this came from Chris Melia so I can't think where you fit in to this.
Incidentally if this is the one to which you refer, I have to tell you that it is different from the original ones I have and if there is any copying going on it will be with the real thing.
I will supply invoices and receipts for the two roofs which I purchased and all of my drawings supplied to my pattern maker to anybody who wishes to question this.

It's a shame that somebody has got you all twisted so I will ask you to now name them.
I must also warn you here, do not try to claim credit for any of my work nor discredit others for your bitterness and get your fact's right before you make such accusations.

 

[JimmyMac]

but I have encountered some very dishonest people who will go to any lenghts to either pattern, borrow and not return or steal what I have produced from scratch and it does make you extremely cautious and then reluctant to supply parts.

Roy,
Get it of your cheast and name the dishonest people.

I will also tell you now that Alistair and I purchased most of the remaining worthwhile stock from the John Etheridge workshop so I don't need copies of original parts.
But perhaps you already knew this.

 

[Roy Snook]

Thanks for your reply Jimmy
my question to you was not intended to antagonise you. I have not supplied any parts to Mirage you are correct, I did not say that I had either, I did supply two roof pressings to a UK resident and It is my understanding they found their way to you, if I am incorrect then I openly apologise! Just investigating and tying up a few loose ends.
I am not involved with Chris's roof and it is not from my tooling.
I would be pleased to talk to you, I will pm you my contact number.

I won't name and shame at this moment in time but I could tell you some real horror stories
that I have encountered during the last few years and I have all the factual evidence I need.
regards
Roy

 

[JimmyMac]

No problem Roy and no offence taken,
Sometimes it feels better to get things out. I hope you get your satisfaction with these other people.

I wish you a Happy Yuletide and a more prosperous New Year.