Re: REMEMBER THOSE RULES YOU AGREED TO.......
AMEN Brother Earp !!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
AMEN Brother Earp !!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
I thought you knew !!
- Thread starter wealdenengineer
- Start date
Pete McCluskey.
Lifetime Supporter
Re: REMEMBER THOSE RULES YOU AGREED TO.......
Hey Ron, why don't you say what you really mean? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Hey Ron, why don't you say what you really mean? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Hi All
The post from Steve Danger has worried me a little,why are we bothering to build our MDA cars only to find out that they drive sideways,surely the car was fully tested before all the chassis and parts were produced.????I am sick of hearing about potential problems and dont want to complete the car only to hear that it has to be stripped out again for major mods to the chassis and suspension.We are not going to do anymore to the car until MDA ensure us that things are ok.
One of the mods to the chassis we have been told to look at cant be done as one of the main features of the car is that the engine and box is seated lower in the chassis so there is no room to weld in a support to the lower part of the rear shock towers unless you hang it underneath.
How can someone say its a good product if it dont work.??.
Was the car in question setup properly.??Maybe some minor adjustments to steering geometry,camber,caster ETC would fix this,or was the chassis flexing.
Why cant JP tell us what was wrong so we can sort the problem,i dont want to cause any more agro i just want to get the issues sorted out,get the car finished and enjoy driving it.
The post from Steve Danger has worried me a little,why are we bothering to build our MDA cars only to find out that they drive sideways,surely the car was fully tested before all the chassis and parts were produced.????I am sick of hearing about potential problems and dont want to complete the car only to hear that it has to be stripped out again for major mods to the chassis and suspension.We are not going to do anymore to the car until MDA ensure us that things are ok.
One of the mods to the chassis we have been told to look at cant be done as one of the main features of the car is that the engine and box is seated lower in the chassis so there is no room to weld in a support to the lower part of the rear shock towers unless you hang it underneath.
How can someone say its a good product if it dont work.??.
Was the car in question setup properly.??Maybe some minor adjustments to steering geometry,camber,caster ETC would fix this,or was the chassis flexing.
Why cant JP tell us what was wrong so we can sort the problem,i dont want to cause any more agro i just want to get the issues sorted out,get the car finished and enjoy driving it.
[ QUOTE ]
Hi All
The post from Steve Danger has worried me a little,why are we bothering to build our MDA cars only to find out that they drive sideways,surely the car was fully tested before all the chassis and parts were produced.????I am sick of hearing about potential problems and dont want to complete the car only to hear that it has to be stripped out again for major mods to the chassis and suspension.We are not going to do anymore to the car until MDA ensure us that things are ok.
One of the mods to the chassis we have been told to look at cant be done as one of the main features of the car is that the engine and box is seated lower in the chassis so there is no room to weld in a support to the lower part of the rear shock towers unless you hang it underneath.
How can someone say its a good product if it dont work.??.
Was the car in question setup properly.??Maybe some minor adjustments to steering geometry,camber,caster ETC would fix this,or was the chassis flexing.
Why cant JP tell us what was wrong so we can sort the problem,i dont want to cause any more agro i just want to get the issues sorted out,get the car finished and enjoy driving it.
[/ QUOTE ]
O.K! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif
1) The chassis needs to be tested for strength - this has not happened. Mark Sibley - I've said it before you really need to have it tested tp prove your product.
2) My car was not setup properly on the runway, hence it drove like a crab. Camber, toe, were all out - but as always Mark did not have enough time to prepare the car for the day. Pressure from me, and trying to run before you can walk maybe the cause.
3) The rear of the chassis. This obviously needs adressing. I would like to see MDA test the rear of the chassis and ammend it accordingly. Presumably this is the area that concerns people most. I imagine that if this area were to flex you would experience very dramatic bump steer from the rear.
I have tried to stay out of this thread, but now I thought it was necessary for me to explain my experience with what little time I had with my MDA.
I know Mark will read this and I really hope he does not take it the wrong way. Mark you have everyhting in place to make MDA one of the best - prove everyone wrong and you'll continue to be very well respected. On the other hand if try and sweep this under the carpet....
....I dread to think...
To your continued success.
J.P
Hi All
The post from Steve Danger has worried me a little,why are we bothering to build our MDA cars only to find out that they drive sideways,surely the car was fully tested before all the chassis and parts were produced.????I am sick of hearing about potential problems and dont want to complete the car only to hear that it has to be stripped out again for major mods to the chassis and suspension.We are not going to do anymore to the car until MDA ensure us that things are ok.
One of the mods to the chassis we have been told to look at cant be done as one of the main features of the car is that the engine and box is seated lower in the chassis so there is no room to weld in a support to the lower part of the rear shock towers unless you hang it underneath.
How can someone say its a good product if it dont work.??.
Was the car in question setup properly.??Maybe some minor adjustments to steering geometry,camber,caster ETC would fix this,or was the chassis flexing.
Why cant JP tell us what was wrong so we can sort the problem,i dont want to cause any more agro i just want to get the issues sorted out,get the car finished and enjoy driving it.
[/ QUOTE ]
O.K! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif
1) The chassis needs to be tested for strength - this has not happened. Mark Sibley - I've said it before you really need to have it tested tp prove your product.
2) My car was not setup properly on the runway, hence it drove like a crab. Camber, toe, were all out - but as always Mark did not have enough time to prepare the car for the day. Pressure from me, and trying to run before you can walk maybe the cause.
3) The rear of the chassis. This obviously needs adressing. I would like to see MDA test the rear of the chassis and ammend it accordingly. Presumably this is the area that concerns people most. I imagine that if this area were to flex you would experience very dramatic bump steer from the rear.
I have tried to stay out of this thread, but now I thought it was necessary for me to explain my experience with what little time I had with my MDA.
I know Mark will read this and I really hope he does not take it the wrong way. Mark you have everyhting in place to make MDA one of the best - prove everyone wrong and you'll continue to be very well respected. On the other hand if try and sweep this under the carpet....
....I dread to think...
To your continued success.
J.P
Lynn Larsen
Lynn Larsen
All,
Some time ago I went around and around with a vendor who was bashing another vendor. One of the reasons we ask vendors to identify themselves, as Ron has already mentioned, is so we can read their posts with the thought in mind that this person, how ever well intentioned, does have an agenda.
Another reason is that so vendors will not make unfounded claims or insinuate that someone else's product is inferior. We don't think that having vendors warring with one another is good for anyone. It especially does no good for the general membership of the forum for who's good and pleasure this forum exists.
In all of my arguments with this person there was one glaring exception given: WHEN A SAFETY ISSUE IS RECOGNIZED AND CAN BE SHOWN, WITH REASONABLE CERTAINTY, TO BE A HAZARD TO LIFE OR LIMB, ANYONE SHOULD FEEL OBLIGATED TO POINT IT OUT.
That said, I would hope that, as has been mentioned here, the first attempt to point it out should be with the principal involved with whatever is presenting a danger. I would hope that it would be done with some couth and sensitivity and with a spirit of helpfullness & concern.
If a one on one conversation(s) are rebuffed and ignored, I would suggest that the one noticing the problem should consult with several, say 2-4, members with a recognized expertise in the area of concern. If the group agrees that there is a problem, they should contact the principal and state those concerns with the reasons/proof.
If the principal still fails to recognize the concern as a legitimate concern and continues to ignore it, then I feel like those who have noted the danger should present their concerns to the forum along with the facts that their REASONABLE CERTAINTY is based upon.
How long should all this take? I guess that depends on the nature of the danger and the possible severity/likelyhood of the concequences if uncorrected or unnoticed.
Regards,
Lynn
Some time ago I went around and around with a vendor who was bashing another vendor. One of the reasons we ask vendors to identify themselves, as Ron has already mentioned, is so we can read their posts with the thought in mind that this person, how ever well intentioned, does have an agenda.
Another reason is that so vendors will not make unfounded claims or insinuate that someone else's product is inferior. We don't think that having vendors warring with one another is good for anyone. It especially does no good for the general membership of the forum for who's good and pleasure this forum exists.
In all of my arguments with this person there was one glaring exception given: WHEN A SAFETY ISSUE IS RECOGNIZED AND CAN BE SHOWN, WITH REASONABLE CERTAINTY, TO BE A HAZARD TO LIFE OR LIMB, ANYONE SHOULD FEEL OBLIGATED TO POINT IT OUT.
That said, I would hope that, as has been mentioned here, the first attempt to point it out should be with the principal involved with whatever is presenting a danger. I would hope that it would be done with some couth and sensitivity and with a spirit of helpfullness & concern.
If a one on one conversation(s) are rebuffed and ignored, I would suggest that the one noticing the problem should consult with several, say 2-4, members with a recognized expertise in the area of concern. If the group agrees that there is a problem, they should contact the principal and state those concerns with the reasons/proof.
If the principal still fails to recognize the concern as a legitimate concern and continues to ignore it, then I feel like those who have noted the danger should present their concerns to the forum along with the facts that their REASONABLE CERTAINTY is based upon.
How long should all this take? I guess that depends on the nature of the danger and the possible severity/likelyhood of the concequences if uncorrected or unnoticed.
Regards,
Lynn
Hi Guys
As I have said on another thread the New MDA MK11 chassis fitted with new suspension set up looks like a big improvement on its forerunner it looks as though the issues raised in this thread were addressed in the new chassis design.
I was wondering however did any of you guys with the Mark 1 chassis get any advice from MDA after this issue was raised?
Did MDA follow any of JP's recommendations?
Have any of you MK1 MDA chassis guys actually finished and drove your cars and if so did you modify the frame in any way, or did you find that there was indeed nothing to worry about and disagree with JP's comments above?
I think its good to go back to a topic like this and see if this forum has actually had an influence over an issue.
regards
Chris Melia.
As I have said on another thread the New MDA MK11 chassis fitted with new suspension set up looks like a big improvement on its forerunner it looks as though the issues raised in this thread were addressed in the new chassis design.
I was wondering however did any of you guys with the Mark 1 chassis get any advice from MDA after this issue was raised?
Did MDA follow any of JP's recommendations?
Have any of you MK1 MDA chassis guys actually finished and drove your cars and if so did you modify the frame in any way, or did you find that there was indeed nothing to worry about and disagree with JP's comments above?
I think its good to go back to a topic like this and see if this forum has actually had an influence over an issue.
regards
Chris Melia.
Last edited:
Jim Rosenthal
Supporter
I think racing is dangerous enough that off the track we should all be ont he same side. Granted, competition is competition- on the track- but OFF the track, we should all look out for each other, and that means if you see something wrong with anyone's car- not just someone you like- you should say something. Worst case outcome?- hurt feelings on the part of someone who can't understand you have his best interests at heart. Best case outcome?- you save a life or lives.
Otherwise, someone might end up having to come visit me- if they live long enough to get to me.
Otherwise, someone might end up having to come visit me- if they live long enough to get to me.
RichardH
AKA The Mad Hat Man
Chris Melia said:
I dont have an MDA, so like to think that I am fairly impartisan here. Surely this problem has several angles.
1) is there a problem that is recognised by the manufacturer?
2) whether there is or not a problem - can the "perceived problem" be fixed.
It appears from (above) that Chris accepts that the MK1 chassis was not as robust as the Mk2. If this is the case - is there a "fix" that can be designed for either the owner to retrofit or at least for the manufacturer to offer.
If we are talking about Chassis strength, then, excepting the weight issue, surely making the chassis "stronger" can only be advantagious to all? I cannot believe that MDA would risk major compensation claims from the "States" if it was found retrospectively that bad design caused a fatality.
It must be all interests to resolve this issue and make any chassis as strong as is practical. If that can be done with a "no blame" philosophy then everyone will gain. Come on guys - you can do it.
"Three years ago we were at a test day with my sons single seater at the start of the season, and on the first lap of the afternoon session the car suddenly turned sharp left straight into the barriers. The immediate concern over his personal safety was allayed when he emerged from the car, which was then ignominiously lifted back to the pits on the back of breakdown wagon. The next concern was why it had happened, he was very lucky to be unhurt! We found a broken rear shock absorber, and whilst discussing whether this was the cause or result of the accident, a guy wandered over and said he had seen it broken before Ian went onto the track - I THOUGHT YOU KNEW ! thanks, warning us might have saved an accident, personal injury and a lot of repair expence. So the question now is this, if you see anything that rings warning bells for any reason, whether at the track, in the workshop, or even on the FORUM, do you make the person at risk aware in some way that this may harm him, or do you look the other way and say its not your problem. OR DO YOU JUST SAY "I thought you knew, mate !"
I've only just picked up on this thread - but a great post. A few years ago I was in a Lamborghini heading out onto the track at the Festival of Speed (the one where the GT was launched with that wonderful display). Whilst in the queue to get onto the track one of the crowd rapped on the window and said 'your front wheel is cracked at the hub!'. I got out and it turned out to be a bit of grease, however it looked exactly like a crack and, of course, it could have been a life saving moment. I rubbed the grease off and, as he apologised, I thanked him profusely.
I've only just picked up on this thread - but a great post. A few years ago I was in a Lamborghini heading out onto the track at the Festival of Speed (the one where the GT was launched with that wonderful display). Whilst in the queue to get onto the track one of the crowd rapped on the window and said 'your front wheel is cracked at the hub!'. I got out and it turned out to be a bit of grease, however it looked exactly like a crack and, of course, it could have been a life saving moment. I rubbed the grease off and, as he apologised, I thanked him profusely.
Shit or get off the pot - specifics make it clear - general statements don't. If your expertise allows you to make a valid claim, then spell it out instead of just screwing around. No point in a heads-up if you can't at least make it clear enough to further warrant inspection.
I personally believe there is absolutely nothing wrong with the MDA setup. Prove me wrong - it would be worth reading for all involved. Make me feel safe...
Chris
I personally believe there is absolutely nothing wrong with the MDA setup. Prove me wrong - it would be worth reading for all involved. Make me feel safe...
Chris
O.K. I've not posted here for a while, so let me start off first by saying that I'm not an engineer. I don't have any calculations for anything that has been or will be discussed here. I was asked about the integrity of my chassis quite a while ago. I am involved in construction, mostly cast in place concrete, reinforcing steel, and structural buildings. I have to say that in the most recent 10-15 years, engineering has gone into the crapper. The older engineers knew their trade. Quite possibly because that had experience actually doing the work that they designed. Today, most are book taught. They have no practical experience. If I had a quarter for every engineers screw up that I had to fix, I'd be rich. I'm not saying that any of the engineers that post here are idiots, I'm just saying that in my experience, the trend is heading that way. Does my chassis look liked a flawed design allowing for flex between the lower control arm mount points? Not in my opinion. I do understand a little about triangulation and how forces will act on a structure. For the chassis to flex, it will most likely want to go outward and upward. My chassis appears to have been designed with this in mind, so I'm not worried in that respect. I understand that there was a Mk I chassis tested and that the numbers came up very well. Have I seen the numbers. Nope, wouldn't understand them if I did.
I've also seen on this site, and experience it also, is the bad blood some hold against others. I've seen some backstabbing happen around here, and some folks with alterior motive working their magic. If that's your intentions on this site, then log off, we don't need your type around here. If your intentions in pointing something out are sincere, then if you are an engineer, or if you excell in the field of chassis design, then you have a duty, no, obligation to be specific about what you see and back it up with detailed information. Don't yell fire unless you can show me some smoke.
That is all,
Be good y'all,
P.S. Sold my Cobra yesterday, I'm a pretty happy camper. Now I can focus on the GT40
I've also seen on this site, and experience it also, is the bad blood some hold against others. I've seen some backstabbing happen around here, and some folks with alterior motive working their magic. If that's your intentions on this site, then log off, we don't need your type around here. If your intentions in pointing something out are sincere, then if you are an engineer, or if you excell in the field of chassis design, then you have a duty, no, obligation to be specific about what you see and back it up with detailed information. Don't yell fire unless you can show me some smoke.
That is all,
Be good y'all,
P.S. Sold my Cobra yesterday, I'm a pretty happy camper. Now I can focus on the GT40
IN LIGHT OF RECENT POSTS ( not about MDA ) I thought this thread and these thoughts might want to be reviewed again, read from the top !
I have read this post with great interest. GT40 or not, when a guy is going out on the track, or just setting in the pits, you should think about the fact that a human life is at stake. I ALWAYS SPEAK UP!!! If the guy gets mad or tells me where to go, that if his problem. MY mind will still be clear. I agree the engineers today do not appear to have the hands on experience that the older ones do. And it is really sad when it is that way, and they won't listen to anyone...they have the paper so to speak, so that makes you an idiot. NOT!!!! No one is perfect (boy am I the example of that) and we can ALL learn from the other guy.
If a product has a failure more than once in the same area, then that area needs to be looked at pronto. A human life is at stake. I never cared wheather I won or lost a race or a car show, but I always wanted to know that everyone went back to the family and home in one piece.
It is the sport and the hobby that is the common interest here, but it should also be concern for your fellow man.
IMHO, to those who do not have a degree on paper, I allow you to use, and hope you will find the humor in the statement I've always used, when it is brought up. "You're right, but I got a PHD in life!!!!!!!!
By the way, Merry Christmas to everyone, may your holiday be good, and SAFE!!!:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
If a product has a failure more than once in the same area, then that area needs to be looked at pronto. A human life is at stake. I never cared wheather I won or lost a race or a car show, but I always wanted to know that everyone went back to the family and home in one piece.
It is the sport and the hobby that is the common interest here, but it should also be concern for your fellow man.
IMHO, to those who do not have a degree on paper, I allow you to use, and hope you will find the humor in the statement I've always used, when it is brought up. "You're right, but I got a PHD in life!!!!!!!!
By the way, Merry Christmas to everyone, may your holiday be good, and SAFE!!!:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
David,
I do agre with you, i will always be speaking.
Mine friend had in the past a raceteam, he always let the boys after there works was done, clean the cars, inside and outside.
Sometimes they found some loose parts.
I do agre with you, i will always be speaking.
Mine friend had in the past a raceteam, he always let the boys after there works was done, clean the cars, inside and outside.
Sometimes they found some loose parts.
Dimi Terleckyj
Lifetime Supporter
Hi All
Even without the consideration of someone being injured there is another reason which will affect us all if faults are left and not corrected or pointed out.
We build our cars out of passion and enjoyment but we are still at the mercy of the authorities to get our cars registered and god knows they do not like our cars and would rather see us off the road and driving ordinary butterboxes.
If for no other reason any and all possible faults should be made public to help us all have safer cars which wont hurt anyone and also give the authorities no reason to ban us from building our own versions of our dreams.
All the authorities need is the unwelcome publicity of a home built car to crash and injure or kill someone so they can paint the whole kit car/ home built sport with the same brush and justify banning these cars.
We not only owe it to the person who might be hurt to point out possible problems but to our sport as a whole.
If I point out what I think is a problem one of two things happen the problem is fixed or I have just learnt something I did not know or was unaware of.
Either way everybody benefits.
Hiding a problem just because someone's pride may be hurt is no sensible way to handle anything.
If you see something wrong stand up and say something.
Dimi
Even without the consideration of someone being injured there is another reason which will affect us all if faults are left and not corrected or pointed out.
We build our cars out of passion and enjoyment but we are still at the mercy of the authorities to get our cars registered and god knows they do not like our cars and would rather see us off the road and driving ordinary butterboxes.
If for no other reason any and all possible faults should be made public to help us all have safer cars which wont hurt anyone and also give the authorities no reason to ban us from building our own versions of our dreams.
All the authorities need is the unwelcome publicity of a home built car to crash and injure or kill someone so they can paint the whole kit car/ home built sport with the same brush and justify banning these cars.
We not only owe it to the person who might be hurt to point out possible problems but to our sport as a whole.
If I point out what I think is a problem one of two things happen the problem is fixed or I have just learnt something I did not know or was unaware of.
Either way everybody benefits.
Hiding a problem just because someone's pride may be hurt is no sensible way to handle anything.
If you see something wrong stand up and say something.
Dimi
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