New motor oils are bad for Older Engines with Flat Tappet Camshaft

[John Fitzpatrick]

I haven't been able to find the original document but a number of forums link to a GM Service Bulletin on the subject. Here's one:
GM debunks ZDDP myths for flat tappet cams - Bob Is The Oil Guy

Comp Cams disagrees:
http://www.compcams.com/Base/pdf/FlatTappetCamTechBulletin.pdf

 

[Julian]

Is this likely, and is there a way to check without a tear-down? I've put about 3,000 miles on it and used Pennzoil 10W30 for the two oil changes I've made.

Pennzoil is for farm machinery, I've heard nothing but bad about it. As the commercial says it cleans all the gunk i.e. strips all the carbon build up from the engine.

 

[Al Jones]

Keith Craft will not warrantee their engines unless you use the 'Joe Gibbs" oil. For others, I have heard the Shell 'Rotella T' formula is good but that previous post indicated the detergent additives might be harmful. Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought all of these oils had some degree of detergent action. For my BMW V8 the factory specifies Mobil 1 15w-50,as mentioned it has zinc additive.

 

[Ron Earp]

Hi Ron,

Solid Roller engines just like solid flat tappet engines - have to have a lash clearance built into them. Usually something on the order of .024" on the Intake and .028" on the exhaust. This is to make up for the expansion of the components as they heat up and to make sure that once they are hot that the valves will close all the way when on the heal of the cam lobes.

I'm still confused. I would suspect the ideal is as you mention, have just enough clearance when cold so that when the motor is at operating temp and the pieces have expanded then there is no clearance between any of the parts. So if the clearance is set correctly then how can the lifter be thrown off the cam? Seems that you'd have a 100% solid connection with the valve spring pushing down on the lifter via the rocker and pushrod.

I've only messed with hydraulic rollers so this is all interesting to me. Especially since I'm planning on a BB build with a solid roller.

R

 

[Jac Mac]

I'm still confused. I would suspect the ideal is as you mention, have just enough clearance when cold so that when the motor is at operating temp and the pieces have expanded then there is no clearance between any of the parts. So if the clearance is set correctly then how can the lifter be thrown off the cam? Seems that you'd have a 100% solid connection with the valve spring pushing down on the lifter via the rocker and pushrod.

I've only messed with hydraulic rollers so this is all interesting to me. Especially since I'm planning on a BB build with a solid roller.

R

You are assuming that the spring actually does keep the lifter in contact with the lobe at all times.
All hydraulic cams regardless of whether they are roller or flat tappet or even pad type rockers like the later Nissan & ford 2.3 Pinto etc have a different ''Ramp'' at the open/close points on the lobe from that used on a solid lifter. Most solid lifter cams ( Both flat & roller ) have a 'Ramp' within which the running ( NOTE: Running & Hot ) clearance can be varied if you wish for fine tuning, but its real purpose is to allow for all the variables like cam & valvetrain deflection when running thru all the temp variations that all these parts are exposed to. ( There are a couple of good videos on U tube of valve spring monkey motion @ High RPM on a nascar motor ). Just because its a Roller doesnt mean it is bulletproof either...for example the roller on the lifter turns at approx 1.5 x cam RPM on the base circle and 2.6 x cam rpm over the nose of the lobe, so if due to valve spring problems it loses contact with the lobe as it pass's over the nose it will have 'wheelspin' situation at the point where it recontacts the lobe again. Now in the SBF situation with no rev kit on a solid roller this can happen, on any of the taller blocks it doesnt need too as there is room for the kit.
Same thing happens to a hyd roller when you rev it past the point where the springs keep it in contact with the lobe...... in fact a rev kit fitted to a hyd roller would be a sensible way of extending the available RPM range without going to ridiculous valve spring rates which actually try to bleed the hyd lifter down as well as killing valves /seats etc.

 

[EGLITOM]

I plan on using Valvoline Racing 20 W50 http://www.valvoline.com/pages/products/product_detail.asp?product=50 ( i´m using this in my flat tappet (actualy the valve is directly driven by the cam via a flat tappet, but i assume that loads are the same except the loads created by the higher masses of the sbf cam drive) racing bike which turns 13000 RPM)
There is also a info about the zinc level http://www.valvoline.com/downloads/2008-003a.pdf
Technical data sheet http://www.valvoline.com/products/VR-1%20Racing%20Motor%20Oil.pdf​

interesting is also this article, Comp Cams Camshaft Break-In Oil Additive - High Performance Pontiac Magazine
it states that the zinc content of rotella T 15 W 40 is 1 200 ppm = 0,12% which is the same as in the valvoline racing oil. ​

So could i use the valvoline as well for breaking in??​

Do you recommand the adding of other additives like the one from comp cam mentioned in the articel above ??​

Jac Mac would you be open to post a comprehensive list of what to do to make a flat tappet engine live longer ?​

Thanks
TOM​

 

[Jim Rosenthal]

I have run Rotella-T for years in marine diesels with no problems. (my Caterpillars, which were lousy engines, required a special Cat oil with the additives taken OUT, which tells you something) My Cummins diesels, which are terrific engines, use Rotella-T. Use in recreational marine diesels is fairly rough- the engines sit for long periods of time, and then the boat get taken out and run at high loads, since there isn't any downhill out on the water- they are constantly working. I have had no oiling problems with Rotella-T. I will probably drain and refill all my classic cars with it; it is easier to have one oil aorund than several different ones, and the stuff isn't expensive, especially at Sam's or Crack Auto. And when you buy a pallet of it, you get a better deal.

 

[Trularin]

I follow the same routine as Randy V by adding two bottles of STP.

Although I just swapped CAMs, the old one was in fine shape and had a solid 10k on it.

 

[Mark Clapp]

Just a couple of notes on this. I read that the STP "red" and "blue" colored bottles have different ZDDP amounts and only one of the two has enough, although I'm not sure which one. I have Royal Purple in my engine and was assured by them that they have a proprietary compound additive that fully protects flat tappets.

 

[Trularin]

I have contacted Mobil as I run Mobil1 in my engine and the tech said that all oils at 30 weight or less must have a reduced ZDDP as it damages the catalytic converters. But, he said that Mobil put a suitable amount in oils above 30 weight.

I run 15W-50 and was assured it has enough ZDDP. But I add the STP anyway.

The tech said a lot of oil companies have suitable ZDDP in oils above 30 weight.

Just a little added info.

 

[Al Jones]

I plan on using Valvoline Racing 20 W50 http://www.valvoline.com/pages/products/product_detail.asp?product=50 ( i´m using this in my flat tappet (actualy the valve is directly driven by the cam via a flat tappet, but i assume that loads are the same except the loads created by the higher masses of the sbf cam drive) racing bike which turns 13000 RPM)​

There is also a info about the zinc level http://www.valvoline.com/downloads/2008-003a.pdf
Technical data sheet http://www.valvoline.com/products/VR-1%20Racing%20Motor%20Oil.pdf​

interesting is also this article, Comp Cams Camshaft Break-In Oil Additive - High Performance Pontiac Magazine
it states that the zinc content of rotella T 15 W 40 is 1 200 ppm = 0,12% which is the same as in the valvoline racing oil. ​

So could i use the valvoline as well for breaking in??​

Do you recommand the adding of other additives like the one from comp cam mentioned in the articel above ??​

Jac Mac would you be open to post a comprehensive list of what to do to make a flat tappet engine live longer ?​

Thanks​

TOM​

Tom,first get a couple of opinions from accredited engine builders. IMHO you would use a slightly thinner oil than the 20w-50 for initial break-in,possibly 10w-40 or a straight 30 but all must have the zddp additive. When you assemble the engine coat the cam contact surfaces liberally(use a lot) with a break in protection paste made for this task. This is usually provided by the cam manufacturer but do not start the motor if this has not been done. You should also pre-oil the engine using the oil pump shaft driven from an external source(drill motor),making sure the rotation is correct.Also be sure to use the correct distrbutor gear to match either an iron or steel cam. When the engine is started,if no bad noises are heard,go right to 2000-2500rpm. This will insure proper oiling of the cylinder walls as the rings seat in and provide adequate flow to the top end components. After an initial run and check of the clearances and timing, start cycling the engine, changing rpm. Still, the best thing to do before anything else is check with a reputable engine builder first. That's my opinion,someone else may have a different procedure. A.J.

 

[BruceA]

I have contacted Mobil as I run Mobil1 in my engine and the tech said that all oils at 30 weight or less must have a reduced ZDDP as it damages the catalytic converters. But, he said that Mobil put a suitable amount in oils above 30 weight.

I run 15W-50 and was assured it has enough ZDDP. But I add the STP anyway.

The tech said a lot of oil companies have suitable ZDDP in oils above 30 weight.

Just a little added info.

Is the 30 that you are quoting referring to the thick or thin weight? eg: the last figure, the thick weight??

 

[Jac Mac]

I see Price Motorsports make rev kits for both hyd & solid roller lifters that fit the 351W block, I assume this can/could also be doctored to fit both 9.200/8.700 versions of the SBF as well, but that still leaves the 8.200" blocks out in No Mans land, that said if you were to fit Hi Port heads like Canfield etc there might be just enough room to make up a special one of deal if you really need it. Heads would probably need to be spot faced in pushrod hole area & collars made for lifters. Only worth the effort if your in a class that dictates 8.200 block.

 

[Wayne]

Greetings All!!

I have been doing a lot of research, and talking to a lot of industry pros about this oil problem. It seems that Delo and Rotella now have a "clean Air" designation on their oils. What they did, was remove most of the Zinc and Phosphate from them. Ruined some really good oil. The auto manufaturers are starting to find failures in the needle bearings on the roller rocker arms and rollers on the lifters. Seems that they aren't getting proper lube under a heavy load. I was talking to the West Coast rep from Brad Penn, at the SEMA show, and he says they have no plans to remove the additives from their oils. The owner of Oregon Cam Grinding says the best thing to do, is add one quart of Brad Penn break in oil, to your oil change of regular Brad Penn oil. He claims to have had zero cam failures using this method. Now, Royal Purple will be quick to tell you, that Brad Penn oil is not API certified. With all of the failures going on, what does that say for the API? Kendall was the choice for racing oil a long time ago, it is the same refinery. I use Brad Penn tarnsmission fluid, motor oil, and their diesel engine oil. No problems at all. I even use it in my lawn mower!!

Like everything else, trying to fix something that isn't broken leads to all kinds of problems.

Wayne Mills

 

[Doug Clark]

Ok so what is probably a daft question...

I'm trying to work out why 'older' engines suffer this issue and newer ones don't.
(and forgive my ignorance of pushrod V8's) What is difference between a cam acting on a flat follower in push rod V8 and a cam acting on a flat bucket or shim in an OHC motor? To me the action seems identical so why do the push rod motors suffer and the OHC units apparently don't?

 

[Jac Mac]

Ok so what is probably a daft question...

I'm trying to work out why 'older' engines suffer this issue and newer ones don't.
(and forgive my ignorance of pushrod V8's) What is difference between a cam acting on a flat follower in push rod V8 and a cam acting on a flat bucket or shim in an OHC motor? To me the action seems identical so why do the push rod motors suffer and the OHC units apparently don't?

The OHC late model stuff has considerably larger diameter/area on the cam follower/lifter face, lighter valve-spring-retainer mass, no pushrod or rocker mass, and the spring pressures are much less. To put it simply, the pressure between lobe & lifter is considerably reduced.

 

[Rick]

Doug68:
Your two examples illustrate the same scrubbing type of friction that ZDDP and Phosphate helped to overcome. They actually created a film that bonded to the metal over time. With the Auto Manufacturers requesting and the EPA (USA)dictating that they both be reduced to prevent the poisoning of Catalytic convertors (they were getting less than 100,000 miles from them), it was at the expense of the older cars with the old camshaft techology.
Many (with very few exceptions) of the New Car Manufacturers utilize roller tappets and some even roller rocker arms which allow the use of light weight oils for fuel saving benifits and lower valve train spring loads because of softer opening and closing ramps on the cams. The roller technology and lower spring pressures combine for less parasitic power loss too.
The 911 series of Porche has addressed this very thing too, as thy utilize the same scubing friction on their rocker arms as does the OHC Pinto and older 1600
Twin Cam Fords with their "Buckets & lash pads". This is a definate problem to keep in mind.

 

[Dave Whittaker]

I recently switched to Amsoil - Dominator 15-50. I had this concern regarding cam wear and was guided to this brand for that reason. Anyone else use Amsoil? Pro or con experience?

FYI: This oil has a well rounded proven pedigree and originally was designed as a 20w-50 weight oil. Many NASCAR teams use this oil.

AMSOIL (RD50) - Dominator 15W-50 Phosphorus and Zinc Content

Phosporus:1424 ppm
Zinc: 1575 ppm

Tech Data Bulletin Link:

https://www.amsoil.com/lit/databulletins/g2570.pdf

David Whittaker CMLA Ifficeffice" /><?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com

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