RCR GT40 VINs

[Michael]

In viewing another RCR GT40 Mk1's VIN on another thread, I notice that it varies somewhat from my VIN.

The VIN on the other car starts with RCRGT40MK (9 characters) and completes with 10215615 (8 numbers), and mine starts with RCR40MK (7 characters) and completes with 10 numbers. Both are 17 characters overall.

So now my question is, what came first, the chicken or the egg? How does one decipher which vehicle was produced earlier/later and what would be considered the serial number?

TIA

 

[Howard Jones]

These are not VIN numbers. They are manufactures production reference numbers or if you prefer serial numbers for you kit. They will confuse motor vehicle clerks if you call them VINs. Use the "serial" number on your MSO to identify the kit for the purpose of getting a real VIN number at your states DMV. This is what changes your kit into a motor vehicle.

Other forum members from Florida might be better able to walk you through the process in Fla.

 

[Michael]

Howard,

They are actual VIN numbers. I know for sure mine is. It was on the PO's title (which I have a copy of), and it's on my current title. The other VIN I mentioned is shown on a data plate of a wrecked RCR Mk1 in another thread. I was just curious as to why the two VINs are somewhat different and thought I'd ask.

Also, my car is a fairly early car that dates back to 2006/2007, so I'm curious to know which of the 10 numbers on my VIN might indicate the serial number. Guess I could call RCR to inquire, but thought I'd try here first.

 

[Cam]

It may have changed over time. With my SLC the numbers that make up the "VIN" indicate the date of deposit and the date the kit left their doors. Other states may have different ways of dealing with the VIN, in CA the state assigns you a new VIN. The "VIN" included on the RCR MSO isn't used for that purpose.

 

[Randy V]

I am not aware of RCR or any component car MFR issuing actual VIN numbers with their “kits”. If they did, they would be categorized as a Vehicle Manufacturer and that brings with it all manner of additional headaches and expense.
Many states will issue a VIN if you have not already assigned your own VIN with a permanently attached tag or stamped directly into the chassis itself.

 

[Michael]

I suppose it varies state by state Randy. In FL for example, MSO's are state issued documents that look not much different than a title. When I was near completion of my cobra, I spoke with the folks at Everett-Morrison and they requested a state issued MSO with E-M's derived VIN on it. That VIN is now on my title and on the data plate that was delivered with the body. When I went through the title process in FL, they (FL DMV) simply transferred that VIN from the MSO to the title. It would appear that WI does things similar to FL? Not sure why you and Howard are indicating the numbers are not VINs.

Here's a copy of the PO's title that clearly shows the RCR referenced VIN. I have a copy at home of the original WI issued MSO that carries the same number. What am I missing?

 

[Doug Dyar]

I suppose it varies state by state Randy. In FL for example, MSO's are state issued documents that look not much different than a title. When I was near completion of my cobra, I spoke with the folks at Everett-Morrison and they requested a state issued MSO with E-M's derived VIN on it. That VIN is now on my title and on the data plate that was delivered with the body. When I went through the title process in FL, they (FL DMV) simply transferred that VIN from the MSO to the title. It would appear that WI does things similar to FL? Not sure why you and Howard are indicating the numbers are not VINs.

Here's a copy of the PO's title that clearly shows the RCR referenced VIN. I have a copy at home of the original WI issued MSO that carries the same number. What am I missing?

View attachment 97151

What you are missing is that each state does it differently.
In your example it seems that the state chose to use RCR's serial number as the VIN.
In my case, the state will issue and stamp into the frame a new number, assigned by them, that has no relationship to the manufacturer's serial number.
50 states. 50 ways to do it. Go figure.

 

[Randy V]

I suppose it varies state by state Randy. In FL for example, MSO's are state issued documents that look not much different than a title. When I was near completion of my cobra, I spoke with the folks at Everett-Morrison and they requested a state issued MSO with E-M's derived VIN on it. That VIN is now on my title and on the data plate that was delivered with the body. When I went through the title process in FL, they (FL DMV) simply transferred that VIN from the MSO to the title. It would appear that WI does things similar to FL? Not sure why you and Howard are indicating the numbers are not VINs.

Here's a copy of the PO's title that clearly shows the RCR referenced VIN. I have a copy at home of the original WI issued MSO that carries the same number. What am I missing?

View attachment 97151

RCR will tell you directly (they did me) that their MSO and serial numbers are neither titles or VINs..

 

[Michael]

One quick search revealed this little nugget from the legalbeagle.com website

"A Manufacturer’s Statement of Origin (MSO) is the paperwork generated by the manufacturer of a piece of equipment, machine, watercraft or automotive vehicle. In most cases the form looks like a certificate of title and lists the name of the manufacturer, model number, manufacture year and vehicle identification number."

Not trying to be argumentative, just pointing out what I've always believed to be the case.

 

[Rick Muck- Mark IV]

In FL for example, MSO's are state issued documents that look not much different than a title.

View attachment 97151

An "MSO" (also known as an "MCO") is NOT issued by a state but by the manufacturer. It is the "birth certificate" and transfer of first ownership for a product.

 

[Michael]

"An "MSO" (also known as an "MCO") is NOT issued by a state but by the manufacturer."

Fair enough, that was an incorrect assumption on my part. But to the point of my statement, the MSO from RCR (which I have a copy of) did in fact contain the VIN that carried over to the state issued WI title, and then to my current FL title. To be clear, I understand the state does not have to accept the VIN printed on the MSO, and may choose to issue a VIN of their own design, but in this case, WI did accept it as did FL in the case of my cobra.

Now, to get back to the original reason I started the thread, does anyone have insight into when RCR may have changed the VIN numbering scheme mentioned in the first post? Also, which of the numbers (digits?) in either scheme would indicate the actual serial number? I would be curious to know which spot my car occupies in the chronological build order. For example, is it the 8th one built, the 12th? Surely there's a series number in those 17 characters somewhere, no? Not really looking for anything more complicated than that. Guess I'll just call RCR and ask them.

 

[Howard Jones]

https://www.edmunds.com/how-to/how-to-quickly-decode-your-vin.html

Here is what a VIN is. ONLY vehicle manufactures (Ford, Audi, Toyota, etc.) can issue VIN's on a new car. You government (state, province, country) will assign a VIN to your completed kit car as part of the first registration process and thus make it a car for the purpose of the international agreement related to VIN's. This allows for international transfer of vehicles under a unified treaty standard.

As far as kit cars go, I think that states can assign a different number sequence than the actual VIN treaty sequence because it is not a manufactured car as specified in the treaty. It is a home built car and the builder is not a manufacture.

Run your cobra VIN through the ap above and see what happens.

 

[Michael]

I get all that Howard, I really do, and I understand why you're so adamantly trying to prove that the identifiers issued by RCR or any other replica manufacturer don't meet the technical standards of a traditional mass auto manufacturer's VINs. I'll happily stipulate to that.

Nevertheless, RCR does issue MCOs with a 17 character identifier that may or may not be accepted by any state DMV to be used as a unique identifier for a titled vehicle in the state's motor vehicle database. Can we agree on that? If the state DMV accepts it, then it may appear on an official state title in the field noted as...wait for it...Vehicle Identification Number. Eureka, it's not technically a VIN that meets an NHTSA standard definition of a VIN, but it still serves the purpose of a VIN for vehicle registration.

So, now that that's out of the way, let's get back to RCR's vehicle identifier scheme (I promise I won't call it a VIN). Does anyone think they've cracked the code on which numbers may identify a possible build order serial number? That's really all I'm asking or care about, honest.

 

[Cam]

Michael - simple answer. No. RCR does not incorporate any kind of scheme in their “VIN” numbering that could be deciphered and translated into a chassis or build number. Call them directly if you want to know what your chassis number is.

 

[Michael]

Thanks Cam, I will definitely call them. I have a hard time believing the identifier they apply to an MSO is nothing but a random number, but who knows, I'm still reeling from the knowledge that my VIN is not a VIN. I will report my findings forthwith.

Phew, this wore me out.

 

[Cam]

Thanks Cam, I will definitely call them. I have a hard time believing the identifier they apply to an MSO is nothing but a random number, but who knows, I'm still reeling from the knowledge that my VIN is not a VIN. I will report my findings forthwith.

Phew, this wore me out.

I didn’t say it was a random number - in fact I stated that the numbers on my VIN represent the date that I placed my deposit and the date the order was completed. It may be different for other models, years, or who knows what else, but that’s the breakdown for the numbers appearing on my MSO.

 

[Michael]

Now you're just messing with me...if it's not a random number, then there's a numbering scheme, can't have it both ways.

 

[Cam]

Now you're just messing with me...if it's not a random number, then there's a numbering scheme, can't have it both ways.

Call RCR.

Thread is dead.

 

[Michael]

A quick note to report what I've learned for anyone who cares to know.

I reached out to RCR and Fran informed me that the RCRGT40MK part of the number was abbreviated to RCR40MK more than 15 years ago due to GT40M trademark/copyright.

He also let me know that the original MSO provided to the first owner had been lost, and then re-issued at a later date to enable the sale of the car to the second owner. So, to quote Fran, "THE REISSUED/NEW MSO NEGATES ANY BUILD ORDER NUMBERING AND WE USE INTERNAL NUMBERING THAT DOES NOT DENOTE ANY BUILD LOG"

Not quite all I was hoping to learn, but it's more than I knew before.

 

[Del]

I happened remember I never scanned my MSO in, so while I had it out I was scanning over it. I noticed on the bottom left, it has RCR 0293. After seeing Cam's blog and finding out what his SLC build number was, it falls in line with what mine possibly could be.

I spoke with Kristin several months ago after seeing Cam's build number and we took an educated guess mine was #275 until I came across the above. Not sure which is correct, but after seeing this thread figured I'd post a little information I came across.