US Sanctioned Club Racing a GT40

Brett,Howard ,I have just had another look at the photo & and wonder if there may be a simple cure . The prang was a simple head on and if the fuel filler tubes were extended to the rear of the fuel tank instead of just ending @ the tank entry point the result would probably have been much less spectacular.

Jac Mac
 

Russ Noble

GT40s Supporter
Lifetime Supporter
Give the original designers a bit of credit..... They probably figured if there was going to be a serious prang, it would most likely be a car going into the wall backwards!!!
 
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Only if you were their atypical test driver,ha ha. And if they designed the tank/filler tube as I have suggested it would not matter whether it was going fwd or backwards, think about it!!

Jac Mac
 

Chris Kouba

Supporter
Through all this, there doesn't seem to be a pre-determined solution regarding the fuel cell issue. The cage seems an easy one to solve. I know there are people out there who do compete with their car and I am really curious to know how they get through tech. Hopefully someone will speak up.

I had thought about a cell which would slide into the sponson from the wheel well as Howard suggested and it seems like a good idea... Finding one or someone to make it may be the challenge.

I had seen the crash test spray pics when they surfaced earlier on the forum and had thought about that a LOT. I have no desire to roast in my car. Something I hadn't understood til this round of discussions was it was only the monza caps on it and not the screw in type underneath them. Is there someone who knows if the twist in type will hold? How about the filler piping to tank?

All this is definately something I am concerned about but I found the motorcycle analogy from earlier to be entertaining. I lived in France for a year and had a Mini (the REAL kind) and that was exactly how I classified it- it was a four-wheeled motorcycle. Made me think twice every time I got into it and before pulling out in front of ANYTHING, but still a cubic mile of fun and one of the COOLEST cars I have ever owned.

I have already relegated the 40 to the same category but would like to have the competition sanctioning powers-that-be allow me to come out and play as well. Not that I'd be too upset if it was just a street/track day car, but it'd be nice to have my options open.

The other thing which is appealing I'd have to chat with Fran about. The aft section of the sponson looks like it could be made into a tank, and if so it'd meet the requirements for SCCA and NASA specs (as far as I can interpret). Maybe my best bet is to have it sealed off and relocate the fillers appropriately. I'd leave the Monza fillers for looks, but I'd feel a lot better if I hit the track. Or if it hit me...

If any thinks of interesting ideas, please feel free to share.

Thanks,
Chris
 

Howard Jones

Supporter
Jac, Good idea, you would still have the volume of fuel inside the fill tube and my guess it would be something like pint or so. Maybe more depending on the ID of the tubing. This is still a significant amount of fuel if it is atomised and lights off. If you put a one way valve at the inlet to the tank (inside) and then ran you pickup tube to the rear of the tank wouldn't that prevent this and be an improvement?

This also solves the problem of tearing off the fill line tubing. There would be very little fuel in it because the one way valve inside the tank would prevent fuel from backing up the hose. I would however enter the tank at the top and then go through the one way valve to the bottom of the tank, turn 90 degrees towards the rear and on to the farthest remost point inside. I think the volume inside the internal tubing would be enough to solve a braking starvation problem.
 
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Howard , It comes down to the design,& size of the tank & in which type of chassis ( mono or spaceframe ). The mono if it is similar to the RCR & with no internal formers can hold about 20 imp gallons ( 24.02 us/gal- 91 litre's) per side with a crush zone front & rear of about 12" & about 4" between tank & sill or rocker panel. The original type mono's like Dave Brown's , CAV & the space frame cars would be less due to former's & tube size's.
A 'dry break' type valve under a 'Monza' filler cap should solve the possibility of the fuel in the filler tube surging fwd in a crash situation.
The filler tube would have to remain at the top of the tank for rapid refueling purpose's and to allow air to vent out. I would assume that both tanks would feed thru check valves to a sump filter for the pump to pickup fuel from. Not sure that this would comply with U.S. race regulation's but for a road car would make the system safer .
I envisage that both tanks would be rectangular in cross-section and the same physical size with fuel filler fittings at both end's so that the redundant fitting would become the fuel pickup point at rear in each case.
 
how 'bout this

I don't claim to know all there is know about the SCCA. I avoid them like the plauge for many reasons, and suggest others do the same.

What about if you just built the car to be as safe as you think it should be, and run it with who ever will let you run? I ran my Boss 302 with a "drivers education" group in May. It was 95% of everything my racing group is. Same track, same cars, same drivers. Some new drivers and cars as well. the only difference.....we didn't have a real "race", or a real "start". We just all went out and drove the piss out of the cars. The only thing I missed was the start, but that is because I am really good on the start. Once the start is over, and we've spread out over the first lap, this "DE" event felt exactly like all the races I've been in. There was no SCCA type nit-picking the car to death. The tech was reasonable, and prudent. Loads of fun.

I think this is the true calling of the GT. Yes, there are those who thrive on the competition. But, it would only be meaningful if other similarly equipped and prepared cars are with you. It doesn't really mean anything if I whip up on a Spridget, or if a Formula 5000 whips up on me.

Also, once you have so much invested in the car I think you will find you don't drive it at the limit like you would a race car that you didn't have such a deep relationship with. I know I will let just about anyone past me. If they start filling up my mirror, I find a way to let them by. If I am so good, I'll just pass them again. Since I get absolutely the same thing for winning the race or coming in dead last (NOTHING), I see no reason to risk a brush with the wall or a high speed off roading experience. I have been in the "red mist" a few times, and luckily have not damaged anything but my pride.

I can only imagine how much fun a GT-40 would be on the track. When I build mine, it will see some track time for sure. But doubt it will be "raced".

Have you ever raced a high power to weight ratio car wheel to wheel? You might go rent a ride a few times before you spend extra money and brain cells on modifying the -40. There should be lots of different groups you could run a well built car with.

Just my thoughts from the peanut gallery.

Dan
 

Pat

Supporter
FWIW...
A couple of thoughts, I've been SCCA racing for quite some time and I think I agree with the comment that it may not be wise to bang fenders with a 19 year old yea-who in a tubed frame 3/4 scale NASCAR stocker. Especially if you are driving an exoctic car that has the its frame templates a continent away. I have had several tangles with idiots racing my formula car and don't recommend racing anything you are not prepared to drag home on a flatbed trailer.

That said, as far as prepping a replica to race, I think the fuel cell issue would not be hard to solve as there are several companies that will build a cell to fit wherever you wish. I've done business with Floats and Fuel Cells in Memphis and my racecar has a cell from Fuel Safe. (I have no affiliation other than as a customer with either). One of the SCCA tech guys in the Southeast is a friend and when he looked at my CAV he indicated with a rear breather check-valve and secondary cap under the Monza cap, the fuel cell would be compliant in that regard. (this is something we should do anyway). The knock offs would be an issue but could be replaced with a wheel nut and safety pin. The side windows would need to come off and a window safety net installed. His big issue was the roll cage. The SCCA requires all closed automobiles (with roof) incorporate a full height front and rear hoop with a line from the main hoop (behind the driver) over the helmeted head of the driver to the top of the front hoop. All hoops must have diagonal bracing with two braces for the main hoop going rearward to the chassis and the front hoop must have a brace extending forward to protect the driver's legs. Tubes must go from the rear hoop to the front hoop across both door openings (they can be removable) in addition to the bracing tubes. To get it in the car, you're talking turning the beast into something that would really not be passenger or “sport touring” friendly after you’re done.

The alternative I'd suggest is to join organizations that sponsor track days or find a number of like-minded individuals and rent a track on your own. I've done that at Roebling and the pooled cost is manageable. They can also arrange the ambulance and fire crews that are required from a risk management (and common sense) standpoint.

If you really want to race a GT40, I’d go to something tube framed and purpose-built similar to the approach of the FFR Cobra.
 
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Malcolm

Supporter
FWIW in the UK for getting our competition log books, when they were introduced the GTD had a real problem with cages and meeting requirments. The way we got round that was to get a GTD specific design approved and certified. It would not meet current regs now as things have moved on again, but for 10 years it enabled all the UK competition boys to go out and play and still does for hill climbing and sprinting.

Can you guys in the US get a cage design certified?
 

Ron Earp

Admin
Hi Dan,

I agree with a lot of what you write with respect to DEs, they are fun and I enjoy them quite a bit. Good seat time and no pressure, which is fantastic for working the bugs out of a car or concentrating on getting something right. Cool picture of your Mustang with that Lola!

But, I also think wheel to wheel racing is a blast and can't be replicated in any way. The SCCA is rather cantankerous at times, but, times are a changing too. The SCCA through the help of subcommittees has been responding to member input. In fact, me and my racing buddy Jeff Young basically single-handedly got a new class started, ITR, that looks like it will be voted in for 2007. New production categories are coming, as well as changes to the process of what classes etc. can be in the runoffs, objectively looking at class subscription and changing the undersubscribed classes, and other things. It looks like the old way of thinking might be changing a bit and that would be welcome. Sometimes the SCCA tape is hard to stomach, but in the SE (and I know in Veek's FL area too) we have a incredibly active group, lots of tracks, so it is worth putting up with everything.

My intended GT40 use is about what yours is, run it on track days. But with the Lola we would are thinking about prepping it and running it in the enduro we do every year. The T70 is much more "cage friendly" though, and could be prepped to GCR specs easier than a 40. Wouldn't use it for sprint races or for my regular race car, but it'd be fun to use on occasion. When running last years enduro with Malcolm and Jools, I couldn't get that FFR Coupe out of my mind - running 2 flats, far ahead of the rest of the enduro field. Would have pulled an overall win if not for the motor issues, but it seemed the motor was built to the max and maybe wasn't well-suited for distance racing. But, take the Lola, use a mild and reliable motor, and I bet we could do the same, sans the engine letting go.

Veek, your idea of renting a track is a good one. I've heard of folks doing it, but never have been involved with putting one together. Maybe one day when we've got a critical mass we the forum members can rent a track and have a GT40s.com track day. Probably could pull it off easily if we worked with a Cobra group.....Good idea you have there!

Ron
 
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I think an SCCA legal roll bar in a GT40 will make it very difficult to get in and out of the car even if you can solve the front and rear bar issue. The fuel cell doesn't seem to be a big problem unless they make you take it out of the sponson and put it somewhere else. The exploding gas cap can be solved by putting the filler directly on the top of the sponson with an aircraft type cap which fills directly into the cell. I can post a picture if you want. The original cars, like most race cars of the day, were very casual about where they put the fuel. There were more vent lines, crossover hoses and other ways to get air out and fuel in than I cared to deal with. They certainly were not safe. Putting a bladder in the sponson, where it is already covered by sheet metal and removing all the extraeneous hoses should be legal. You should be able to get 15 to 20 gallons on one side of the car which should be enough for most sprint races. Then you don't need the crossover lines, second cell and pumps.
Bill
 

Randy V

Moderator-Admin
Staff member
Admin
Lifetime Supporter
Hi - I was reading through the archives and found this post.
There seems to still be a number of unanswered questions about not only the cage but the fuel cell requirements and what measures one can do to increase his odds in the event of a serious mishap.

One of the things that can be done is to implement a rollover valve such as the ones made by Fuel Safe for the fuel filler line.
Here is a link to IO Port Racing Supplies where they sell the FV290-A rollover valve IO Port Racing Supplies: Fill Valves & Caps ... This is the valve that is required by NASA for use on the Factory Five Challenge cars (which also use a Lemans filler cap along with an OEM Screw-on cap beneath).
You would also want to vent the cell(s) via rollover check valves.
One thing here that has not been said is that there should be some allowances made for the compression of the cell. Since fuel (or any liquid I'm aware of) will not compress, there needs to be some room left in the tank / cell to accomodate some degree of compression. Back in the olden days, there would be people using Ping-Pong balls in the fuel cells as they were light and apparently made of a material that was not compromised by the fuel itself. There are other ways - such as the creation of a "dead-space" within the cell or other materials that could be used. I've even seen re-sealed 1 liter plastic soda bottles used but don't recommend them..
Double-wall cells - I think a good case could be made for creating another skin from steel to essentially separate the passenger compartment from the cell itself.

I would advise anyone to seek out the local Chief-of-Tech scrutineer from their local SCCA region prior to just building it with the hope that it will pass..
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Getting classified in ITE - Pretty much everything said here is right on the money. However, one thing that I've found that holds true in most every SCCA Region is that the class ITE pretty much requires that your car has either been log-booked by another "Professional Sanctioning Body" or you have proof that your car has competed in another professional sanctioning body's event. The later is much more difficult to prove to the scrutineers than you might know. The rationale behind "Professional" is to keep you from declaring that you have competed in some unknown fly-by-night sanctioning body - the sole purpose to get you into an SCCA event..

SPO - I've built and log-booked a couple here. The real catch is that the car must be capable of passing the GTn GCR rules requirements. They are very strict. My Factory Five Challenge car was originally equiped with Carburetor and I managed to get it log-booked as a GT1 rather than SPO because I wanted to have the option of running GT1 if I desired. It was tough. The cage requirements of GT1 are very specific and they will not waiver. Bolt-In vs. Weld-In. Bolt in cages are allowed but require that you have a specific square inch value in the base. Also, many scrutineers will not pass a bolt-in unless it has a backer plate the same dimension as the base plate to "sandwich" the floor-pan of the car in between.

Gotta run and work on a couple of new cars we are building but will be giving this thread some more thought.
 

Ian Clark

Supporter
Another great thread! There cannot be enough emphasis on safety when it comes to racing. The sanctioning bodies have everyones best intrests in mind with requirements for fuel cell, roll cages etc. The list goes on and on...

New cars being raced today are designed from the ground up to the rule book. Also tech inspectors are invited to comment during construction of prototype chassis to make sure things stay on the right path.

We've had meetings with scrutineers from CASC (our SCCA) about the CAV monocoque. While impressed with the quality of construction and robust material sections, there is A LOT of work to do to make it GT1 or GT2 legal. That said it, can be done and we're working on it.

We all face the same challenge, bringing an existing replica (or genuine vintage piece) up to current race car specs. What changes a technical inspector mandates that would have been simple enough to build into a car can become a nightmare modifying a built product.

As anyone who's raced a full season of amature racing can tell you, it's an expensive game to say the least. Fortunately there are alternatives with so many private lapping days available at race tracks. So your CAV, ERA, SPF etc with competition belts driven to the track can run with Ferraris, Porches, Vettes, Cobras, Vipers, bring 'em on!

You can get a heck of an adrenaline rush from just a few laps at any race course, makes you appreciate the talent of drivers of the day (and count your lucky stars to own such a fantastic automobile).

Cheers
 
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