WHATS WRONG WITH THIS FORUM

[40 Bud]

Re: WHATS WRONG WITH THIS FORM

Some guys think it is easy to knock out these things and that the manufacturers are out to rip everyone off. Not to long ago someone queried RF about how many units they had sold. As I recalled it Robert reported about 85 units total. Now I know Robert has been in this business at least 4 years (maybe longer). Lets see that makes about 20 to 25 cars per year. This has to support ungoing development, his factory and employees plus feed him and his family. I think that all adds up to about $1,000,000 per year in US $ sales. If the man was making 30% profit (an impossiply high number) he still would be better off working for wages.

 

Re: WHATS WRONG WITH THIS FORM

If you have the passion for the GT you can do what I did. It took me 12 to 14 years after getting a ride in an original to save up enough to pay cash for mine. I have neather the time or the patience to build a kit, and if it wasn't for Bob Lacey and CAV I wouldn,t have mine. It is something that I couldn't live without, but now I am living a dream that only one in 500,000,000 can. Joe /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

 

[Rick Muck- Mark IV]

Re: WHATS WRONG WITH THIS FORM

Lynn,

I differ with your opinion of the goals of Superformance-Yes, I assume they want a share of the GT40 replica market and I think they will get it with their product. HOWEVER, I absolutley think there is room in the market for different approaches. Think of the difference between FFR and Superformance in the Cobra market, both are big players but they are hardly interchangeable. FFR owners are "sweat equity" owners and tend to have a special idea of what they want their Cobra to be like, thus most FFRs are quite different from each other in powertrain, detailing and finish level. Superformance buyers are looking for semi- immediate gratification, i.e. drop in the powertrain and go. I would assume there is VERY little overlap of their repective markets. I guess some FFR guys have sold their car and bought a SPF and perhaps some SPF guys have built a FFR spec racer, but in general they might as well be selling two totally different types of cars, say Cheetahs and Chapparals for example.

I too do not want to see the "I bought/built it one piece at a time" (apologies to Johnny Cash) market go away. In fact my fear more so than SPFs entry into the market is the stability of the people offering this type of product. The sad thing in this type of operation is when they go belly up when you are 60% into the build. I have seen it happen in the kit aircraft indusrty and it has happened to other types of kit cars. Face it, the best way to make a small forune in this business is to start with a large one! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif What if CAV had been suppling cars in a one-part-at-a-time basis? where would the builders be now? I do hope they (CAV) get back up and running as I really think the more solid players in this market, the better it will be for all.

I really don't think the guy who buys a 10-15 thousand dollar starter kit is going to be swayed by a 50-60 K Superformance roller.

Rick /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[Steve Toner]

Re: WHATS WRONG WITH THIS FORM

I'm in the same category as Joseph, except that I've never actually gotten to ride in an original. Saw my first real live GT40 in the flesh (fibreglass?) at Monterey in 1985, I think, and have been wanting one ever since. And of course, I wish I could afford an original but that it out of reach, at least for now. But it only took me 15 years to get to the point where I felt I could comfortably afford a replica. Now that's not to say that if there hadn't been other decent low-cost options available in that time period that I would not have bought one sooner. It has been really hard to come by any kind of GT40 replica in the US up until the last few years with the entry of CAV and RF into the market...

I spent those 15 or so years learning about the cars and their history, continuing to lust after one, and saving for the day when I'd finally be able to own one. I think this forum would only have been a help to me during that time.

 

[Ron Earp]

Re: WHATS WRONG WITH THIS FORM

"Re: WHATS WRONG WITH THIS FORM" I assume this was meant to say "WHATS WRONG WITH THIS FORUM", to which I would reply nothing.

At any rate, I can see SHO40s (name?) point. But, wanting or wishing for something doesn't make it so. I want to own my own plane and don't know why they have to be so darn expensive. Tongue in cheek here of course.

FFR has a Cobra replica that is about $14k I think as a partially complete kit. That is about as cheap as I can remember for Cobra kits, and that kit relies heavily on a lot of components that most folks upgrade because the base materials are not so good - Mustang brakes, gauges, suspension, rear end, etc.

Sean (MEAT but you know how I like real names) planned on a M40 which used a donor package and would offer a car for low $$$. It has never seen the light of day.

Roaring Forties offered a chassis/body package for a short while but the weakening dollar killed that. How can RF offer the package in the US, being built overseas, when they have to ship it here and the dollar has slipped so much in the last 2 years. I think a couple were placed and then the selling cost vs. production cost got too close together.

If an FFR, which is VERY simple in comparison to a GT40 is about $14k for as cheap as it gets then how does anyone figure a GT40 package is going to be any less? I know you're not talking about an entire kit, but the frame, body, and suspension are fairly major bits and are a lot of the fabrication cost - they are built by the manufacturer and involve a lot of tooling costs with labor.

Let's assume it costs our hypothetical company $4k to build a frame and $4k to make body panels. That's 8k at cost. Add in some suspension bits etc. for the basic car and you could have, for our hypothetical company, $10-$11k in costs. Now, how much profit should the company make? $3k and sell it for $14k? Not gonna pay the bills. Markup, just like everything else in the world, is going to be around 100% so our company could sell this package for $20k. And I don't really think that is all that much because I've got to pay workers, keep some money for development, and most importantly, I've got to have some money to cover support of customers - without that our little company will surely sink. And, if our company is located overseas we’re hurt due to exchange rates and then just shipping the blasted thing over. I understand what you want but I think it will take a US company to provide it.

My own situation has changed over the years. When I first ordered my RF car I was sort of in a position like you – I had more time than money and struggled hard just to get into a basic kit. But, things have changed drastically in the last 1.5 years and I now have much more money than time – something I wished for a number of years but now I’m not so sure it is a good thing. I’m gone 30-40% of the time and I’m having a hell of a time trying to figure out how to finish my car, have a family, and carry on with life. Right now I have a complete GT40 sitting in the garage, it just isn’t assembled and at the rate things are going it doesn’t appear it will be. Somethings got to give.

Anyway, if I was low on cash but long on time I’d just wait. I’d save the cash over time and then purchase a used GT40 on the low end of the scale. Take that car and over time make it what you want. You’ll have to look to the UK to get the car, but they are available and you can get one. You’ve got time on your side.

 

[David Morton]

Re: WHATS WRONG WITH THIS FORM

SHO40. If you cant afford it, don't even try. These cars are megga cash hungry unless you want to build a total turkey. And then it shows.
Pat. Monaco with an 18year old FEMALE would be fun !! but I would probably spend all night thinking about what I should be doing. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
AND finally there's absolutely nothing wrong with this forum.
Dave M

 

[Chris Martino]

Re: WHATS WRONG WITH THIS FORM

Nothing comes cheap. Period.

Let's all remember that the individual owners who put up the $$$ to start these replica companies for us, the drooling fools who need their fix, didn't walk out to the yard and pick a crop from the money tree. Engineering is an expensive occupation, tool & die, ditto. Designers, talented employees, the same - passion from such dedicated owners like Mark Sibley at MDA - priceless.

"There are some things money can buy, for everything else there's Master Card."

You get what you pay for - let's be thankful that there are people out there who can help us with our dreams, no matter the cost.

Cheers!

Chris Martino
President
Race Car Replica's

 

Re: WHATS WRONG WITH THIS FORM

DAVE, GO PLAY WITH YOUR 18 YEAR OLD, I SEE WHERE YOUR HEAD IS, IN YOUR DADDYS WALET

 

[Mike Dozier]

Re: WHATS WRONG WITH THIS FORM

Ron

Don't take SHO40 (Bob Jones) thread title too seriously.
If you read his complaint, it's about the GT40 replica
market...not about the Forum itself, which is tops.

Obviously this topic is pretty emotional to most of us
since owning one of these can be a huge strain in all respects
(financially, time-wise, stress, etc).

Lynn old buddy...I hope you're wrong about SPF preventing
someone from coming up with with I consider the "Holy Grail"
...a US built space frame kit, that is more affordable
than those currently available, whose manufacturer will be kind enough to sell in "stages" to those who want to expend
effort/money over a period of time.

No...I'm not a dreamer...such a kit will never sell
for what Cobras do. But darn it...it can be done.
And as proof (I hope)..let's see what Factory 5
ends up with for sell price and scope for their GTM.
That should be a darn good barometer of what is possible.

I'll climb off my soapbox now...

MikeD

 

Re: WHATS WRONG WITH THIS FORM

RON, SORRY I LEFT THE "U" OUT OF FORUM, YOU WANT A NAME
BOB JONES
612 S. MAIN
LUMBERTON,TX.77657
409-751-3522, FAX 409-751-6216, CELL 409-658-9887
IS THIS ENOUGH INFO FOR YOU?
THERE ARE SOME PEOPLE LIKE MYSELF THAT LIKE TO WORK WITH THEIR HANDS, THE ENJOY FABERCATING THEIR OWN PARTS, THEY LIKE TO TAKE PRIDE IN WHAT THEY HAVE DONE, THEY, LIKE MYSELF NEED ONLY THE BASICS TO GET STARTED NOT LIKE A LOT OF YOU OUT THERE THAT WANTS TO TAKE CREDIT FOR WHAT SOMEONE ELSE HAS DONE. AS FAR AS ALL THIS TECH WORK ALL OF THESE MANUFACTURES HAVE INVESTED IN, HOGWASH, HOW MANY OUT THERE
CAN CLAM TO OWNING A MOLD BUCK? NO, BECAUSE THEY HAVE POPPED THEIR MOLD FROM SOMEONE ELSES BODY (WITCH WAS MORE THAN LIKLY TAKEN FROM SOMEONE ELSE)
TO MY CRITICS OUT IN DREAM LAND, HAVE ANY OF YOU TOTALLY REBUILT A GT350 ACOMPLETE NEW BODY AND DRIVE TRAIN,IT IS VERY EXPENSIVE, SO BUILD YOUR CAR THE WAY YOU WISH, AND I WILL BUILD MY CAR THE WAY I WISH

 

Re: WHATS WRONG WITH THIS FORM

DAVE PLEASE ACCEPT MY APPOLOGY FOR THE COMMENTS I MADE, I RECEIVED A E-MAIL FROM A FELLOW MEMBER AND HE INFORMED ME THAT YOU ARE ONE OF THE GOOD GUYS OUT HERE.AGAIN BEFORE THE FORUM I AM SORRY FOR MY COMMENTS
BOB JONES (SHO40)

 

[Mark Worthington]

Re: WHATS WRONG WITH THIS FORM

If you're going to come here and bitch at us you should at least learn how to spell and how to punctuate and how to use proper grammar and how to turn off your caps lock key. (I thought BLACJACK was the only one who was allowed to shout all the time.)

Since none of us like to work with our hands, or fabercate stuff, or make our own mold bucks, or take pride in what we have done, and since we all like to take credit for what someone else has done, and since only a few of us have built a GT350, then why would you want to have anything to do with us? I think we're wasting your time.

 

[Ron Earp]

Re: WHATS WRONG WITH THIS FORM

SHO40, don't take my comments about names too personally, I just encourage folks to use real names that intend to stick around. Makes it a nicer family atmosphere. I don't need your contact info nor do I want it - I just like to try and make the point so people will realize it is a lot more personable communicating with a "person" than a handle.

I know what you're saying about building the car - it isn't rocket science. It does take time. I'm not standing up for the manufacturers or lack of low cost GT40s, but the fact is these folks are in business to make money and the volume is extremely low.

The business I run is extremely low volume too - about 150 units per year in the US. So, we have to charge a pretty piece for the units even though they only cost us about $5200 to make. We've a minimum infrastructure we have to support and we've got to turn a profit.

I would venture to say the GT40 business is not unlike that. Low volume but there is a minimum level that the company has to maintain and that takes dough. There are some US companies in the works, I've not heard updates in a long time, but maybe they'll come out and help. Right now with the weak dollar it is hard to purchase cars from overseas so a US based company would have an advantage at the moment.

And, I would like to point out that most of us here are building our own cars so please don't have the attitude you're the only person who enjoys it, can do it, or is able to do it. You might want to check out the post "GT40s User Guide" in the main forum for some board guidelines. No, I didn't mold my own body and build my own frame, but there are those here that are doing just that - starting with sheet steel and making their own mono frame and pulling molds from exisiting cars. Maybe you should search on the forum and communicate with these people directly. Good luck with your dream, my you find what you are looking for.

 

[David Morton]

Re: WHATS WRONG WITH THIS FORM

Ron et all,
This is rapidly becoming a down hill plummet for no apparent reason. I don't propose to join in the 'to and fro' except I made my comments as a generalization and directed them at no body in particular. Should this topic perhaps be in 'Off Topic Posts' as it really has very little to do with GT40s.
SHO40: I commented about Pat's throw away comment about Monaco, my shoulders are broad, and I don't have a problem with your initial comments to me however thank you for your subsequent posting.
Dave M

 

[Ron Earp]

Re: WHATS WRONG WITH THIS FORM

Dave,
I have to agree with you and I do not know what has transpired off line to make you a "good one" and the rest of us "bad one". Presumably, as far as I know, everyone on the thread has tried to be helpful and supportive. Could be the listener doesn't like what he's hearing. I know all I tried to do was help.

 

[Lynn Larsen]

Re: WHATS WRONG WITH THIS FORM

Bob/SHO

Chill doood! This forum is not like some of the others out there that seem to get off on flame wars and one upsmanship. We don't tolerate people who go off on everyone anonymously. We have had that before, so unfortunately for you we are all a little spring loaded to the jealous position when it comes to maintaining a certain decorum on this site. When I started seeing the all caps, before I even read a word, I started thinking don't make me sorry I was somewhat supportive of your position. We like differences of opinion, what we don't tolerate is someone being dogmatic to the point that they can't hear someone else's differing opinion without getting hostile. All caps screams HOSTILE. State an opinion, back it up with facts and expect someone to state a different opinion and back it up with facts. Rants don't change anyone's opinion they just piss people off.

Regards,
Lynn

 

Re: WHATS WRONG WITH THIS FORM

OK, I started this, now I will try to finish it. sorry for stepping on so many toes. The forum is a great place for people like ourselves that LOVE GT40s. Some have the pleasure to drive one will others just dream.For you drivers, at least waive to us.

 

Re: WHATS WRONG WITH THIS FORM

First of all, there is nothing wrong with this Forum! If it wasn't for this Forum I most likely wouldn't have my car. I have to put my 2 cents in concerning ownership of a 40.
I believe it boils down to, how bad do you want one of these cars? Well I have wanted one when I first saw an image of a French Police officer eyeballing a white GT with wire wheels in one of the car mags. I still have the magazine!I decided over 30 yrs ago I was gonna have one or a replica.
I spent a whole Saturday in a Chicago junk yard removing a Pantera transaxle because I got it $75.00 cheaper along with a few Wasp and other insect bites. I worked 7 days a week and a many 12hour days to buy my set of weber carbs. I have had 2 different car bodies that I rejected after seeing a bunch of original cars at Elkhart Lake.
I don't Fish, Hunt, Golf, Bowl or spend my bucks on anything but cars and a few Model Airplanes.
I started a GT40 fund that got dipped into many times, (kids braces, class trips to europe etc.), I make sure my family is taken care of. I bought many info packs and went bonkers every time one of the Kit Car mags ran a GT40 articale and Elkhart Lake Vintage events has kept the fire going.
I saw the new GT at the Chicago Auto Show and said, " Well thats it, I gonna have one!" The price soon escalated out of my range. I rededicated my self and started selling off some of my collection of parts that would not be needed in the direction I was taking. I then discovered the forum and talked to many People and found the right path. I have had a few false starts, but after seeing and sitting in the CAV40, that did it. Some of my retirement money now resides in my garage! It's been a long time coming as I am 63 yrs. old. I really must say, I treasure all the people I have met and talked to since I have been on the Forum and bought this car.
Ron, can the magnet project and get back on your car. I know sometimes we get burned out.
I also know that there will be starter frame and body available made in the U.S at a resonable price soon. I may build a MK2

Good luck to all in their project and keep the Faith.

Vic
CAV 40

 

[Ron Earp]

Re: WHATS WRONG WITH THIS FORM

Hey Vic, good story on the car - if you want it you'll go get it! And good advice for me too, but I can't get back on it! The dern garage turned into a staging area for moving since we bought a new house. I'm going to try and do something about that today, i.e., get a storage unit and move some stuff into it temporaily so I can work. Right now the wife is upstairs packing more stuff and getting it downstairs. It is a storm around here! But, I have a much better garage and house to look forward to in March! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

 

[Ian K]

Re: WHATS WRONG WITH THIS FORM

Bob -

I apologize if my replies sounded harsh. It's been a tough
couple of weeks at work (my boss retired and there is a
pretty huge reorg going on that is hurting us all), and I
felt your original post sounded snippy. Bad combo.

I agree with MikeDD - the big problem is that there is
currently only 1 US GT40 replica manufacturer actually
doing business, and they only sell "complete" kits for
$55K up to turnkeys for $100K+. As I mentioned here,
and others mentioned in other threads, if you want a bare
bones started kit, they can be had. They all run under $10K,
but are shipped from overseas - so add about $2K to the
price. So, for $10K - $12K, you can get what you want.
The downer is, if you cannot source the parts locally
or get them fabbed, you'll have to go to the manufacturer
to get pieces. The prices may be OK, but shipping is
going to nail you. Hence, in the long run for most builders,
a complete kit is cheaper and makes more sense.

If you have the skills and resources to fab your own
parts, or have contacts that can help you out, then
getting an MDA, DRB, or Tornado basic kit, to me, seems
to fit your needs. Unless, of course, I have totally
misunderstood your original point (which I willingly admit
could very well be the case).

There are a couple of US manufacturers that are supposedly
starting up operations. One of the most promising is
GT40US - http://www.gt40us.com/ . Alain V. used to post
here regularly - maybe he has more to say about what we
can expect. Or contact him directly via their website.
There are some old posts on this forum about the company,
use the search feature to find them. They had pix of the
monocoque they were building.

Ian