Why are there two P1009's ??

Why are there two P1009\'s ??

Recently I was sent a article by Jerry (JERCARNUT) about 1005 being located in Indiana buried in the ground. Now there seems to be another one. So how did the second one come to be.
All this is very interesting especially when you think of the Sbarro counterfiets and how in the world does the registry handle it.?

Hersh /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Re: Why are there two P1009\'s ??

Hi Hershal,
here is another mystery for our forum colleageus to solve.
The first picture is '1012' at Le Mans Classic last year and the second is '1012' at the auction at Monterey last year, both are clearly different cars. I noticed chassis no. 1015 stamped on some parts of the car at Monterey. Which is the real one?


Re: Why are there two P1009\'s ??

Hi Hersh, The car found was P1005. It was in George Walthers, shop in Dayton Ohio. It was prepared new by SAI for La Mans of 65. Was entered by Sauderia Filipinetti and did not finish. Ended up in Salts garage, in the early 70's. This article can be found in Mustang and Fords April 2003, under RARE FINDS
Re: Why are there two P1009\'s ??

This answers Roy's query. Not sure about Hersh's question.

Here's the edited 1012 story from Symbolic Car Co when they had one of the cars up for sale. Symbolic has actually sold both 1012s in their time!:

"The original P1012 was completed late in 1965.

The February 1967 running of the 24 Hours Daytona was chassis 1012's last race, but not the last time the car would appear at this track. Less than two months later, chassis 1012 was back at Daytona for high speed testing. The car was being driven by Peter Revson who unfortunately had a horrific crash with the car. A recently installed roll-bar probably contributed greatly to the fact that Revson walked away from the accident.

The damaged car was returned to Shelby American Incorporated but deemed beyond economic repair. In 1969, the entire damaged car was sold to Don Davis, a California resident of nearby San Francisco. Davis disassembled the car and removed the original and heavily damaged tub. On August 2nd, 1971 he was able to purchase an unused factory tub from JWA. This tub should have been completed in sequence as GT40 P/1110 but was never built or numbered as such.

Davis completed the restoration of chassis 1012 with the new original replacement tub and shortly thereafter began racing it in a variety of historic gatherings. The car was most frequently seen at the Monterey Historic Races where Davis ran the car every year without missing an event from 1975 until 1991 when it was acquired by Stanley Ross of Columbus, Ohio. In Stan's hands, the car was actively and aggressively raced in a variety of historic events though out the United States. The car has been featured in a variety of publications and was on the cover of Victory Lane Magazine in March of 1996.

After Davis completed the restoration of chassis 1012, he was left with the original destroyed tub of the original car. Davis eventually got rid of the scrapped tub by giving it away to his friend Lyle Digness. Digness did nothing with it and eventually sold it to Walter Cantrell of Napa, California. He also did nothing with the car until agreeing to sell it to Wayne Skyles of Oakland, California. By this time the value of GT40's was on a steady rise. Because of the way in which GT40's were built, many tubs were showing severe signs of corrosion damage by the late 1970's and early 1980's. Further attrition do to accidents caused the values of good original cars to rise dramatically. Even a scrapped out damaged tub now had some value and as such, Skyles shipped the remnants of the tub in his possession to Brian Wingfield in England for evaluation for restoration. Eventually about 1/3 of the tub was cut apart and reused in the construction of an all new car built along the lines of the original chassis 1012. A new roof structure, all new floors, and new front substructure were added to the repaired fuel sponsons, all of which were attached to the original rear bulkhead.

The construction of this second GT40, s/n 1012, was completed and the car sold to Andrew Harmon in 1981. Harmon imported the car to his home in Halliesburg, Mississippi. Three years later, the car was sold to Nick Soprano of White Plains, NY. In 1986, Nick sold the car to Stan Cleva of Glenshaw, PA. In 1987, this car was heavily damaged in an historic race at Summit Point, WV. Repairs were eventually completed in 1989 and the car quickly passed through several owners including Ed Hubbard and then Rick Cole until being acquired by Symbolic Motor Car Company in 1994. In 1995, Symbolic sold this car to Jean-Pierre Grave who imported the car to France where it has remained ever since.

So ends the tale of one particular GT40 becoming two.


GT40 P/1012 Ownership History Car One:

1965 Shelby American International
1969 Don Davis
1991 Stanley Ross
2003 Symbolic Motor Car Company

GT40 P/1012 Ownership History Car Two:

1971 Lyle Digness
1973 Walter Cantrell
1976 Wayne Skyles
1981 Andrew Harmon
1984 Nick Soprano
1986 Stan Cleva
1989 Ed Hubbard
1994 Rick Cole
1994 Symbolic Motor Car Company
1995 Jean-Pierre Grave"

Re: Why are there two P1009\'s ??

Which car is the original, I assume its the gold one but the rear end is not as it should be!
Re: Why are there two P1009\'s ??


The gold one is the "real" one but it's now described as a "MK II 427 Competition Coupe". Wrong back end, wrong engine, etc, etc, but hey, it's original...!

Re: Why are there two P1009\'s ??

Sorry Guys,
I got my stories mixed up. But it's still an interesting subject to say the least.
I would love to see some of the restoration pictures of 1005. That had to be one ambitious project.
Thanks for the correction Jerry. I edited it to read 1005 instead of 1009.

Hersh /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Re: Why are there two P1009\'s ??

rob great job summarizing that bit of gt40 trivia . wonder what the value would be ?

Ron Earp

Re: Why are there two P1009\'s ??

Dammed if this group of people can't sort some stuff out!!! well beyond my means and interests but very intriguing nonetheless!!
Re: Why are there two P1009\'s ??

Simple answers to complex questions:
Q: Which is the original?
A: Neither, but both contain some parts from the original (the problem with most restorations).
Q: What is the value?
A: Whatever a willing seller and a willing buyer agree upon, but probably a bit more than a replica (in the same condition) and less than an all original car if there is such a thing today.
JMHO. Best regards, Orin Meyer
Re: Why are there two P1009\'s ??

Hi Hersh,

I know of only one 1009. Don't know about 1005.

It belonged to Malcolm Guthrie, son of Sir Giles Guthrie, who was at the time chairman of BOAC. Wish I had a rich daddy!

At the end of 1968 Malcolm brought the car to South Africa for the Springbok series and co-drove it with Mike Hailwood in the Kyalami Nine Hour. According to the programme it was entered by Frank Williams Racing. Malcolm crashed the car in the race. The GT40 was painted in a dark metallic silver with maroon central stripe with black pin stripes.

For the 1969 season Malcolm brought the car out again but entered under his own name. This time he shared the car with motor cycle and car racer, Paddy Driver, big mate of Mike Hailwood.

Paddy Driver! Now there's another story! His small farm close to the Kyalami circuit was RACING DRIVERS HEADQUARTERS for the Kyalami Nine Hours and South African Grands Prix.Boy, I can I write a book! Summer in Africa, swimiming pools, parties, barbeques......

A quickie. For the 1970 Nine Hour I sponsored Mike Hailwood's Lola T210 painted in our loud emerald green Autospray corporate colours.

The car was stored in Paddy's workshop and I went to hand paint the numbers (No: 15) on the car. I took with me a black employee, Columbus, huge guy, 6ft 4ins and the kindest and most religious soul you could ever meet.

The black guys in the panel shop would sharpen worn out hack saw blades to cut masking tape and then stick them through their hair. Good storage place!

As I was working on the car, with the passing of time I can't remember if it David Hobb's wife, Maggie, or Richard Attwood's, wife, Veronica, opened the door leading into the workshop and asked If my assistant and I would like a Coke.At this point she knew there was someone else in the shop but had not seen him.

When she brought in the tray with the Cokes, Columbus was standing next to me. Suddenly the English lady, new to Africa, was confronted by a FEARSOME WARRIOR complete with stabbing spear in hair! She dropped the tray and fled in terror. Old Columbus just stood there with a bemused grin on his face!

My brother built a Revell model of 1009 complete with the correct colours. As he could not bear to part with it I now have it on a 'long term loan' basis!

Now Hersh, look what you have done. You ask an innocent question and off I go again!

There's another story about chassis number duplication. A GT40 was badly crashed and parts were taken from the car to build another one. The chassis number was transferred to the rebuilt car and now after many years the original car will be rebuilt. What chassis number does it use? Difficult one that one.

Keep smiling!
Andre 40
Re: Why are there two P1009\'s ??

OK guys! I'll put my 2 cents worth in. While at the S.A.A.C. 25 event at Lime Rock a few years ago, I saw a rusty GT40 chassis with gold painted body sitting on two saw horses claiming to be 1041 or 1040. I caint remember if was 40 or 4i. I ran over to the S.A.A.S.headquarters and looked up the car in their registry finding that there seems to be two cars with same chassis numbers. I really wasn't surprised! I saw tha chassis earlier in the day stuffed in the back of a pickup truck at the hotel. It looked like the chassis was sand blasted and left out in the rain for a long time. I was going to offer the guy a thousand dollars for the thing. I never could find the owner at the track to make my offer. I found out late in the day I was a little short on my offer. I heard it sold for three hundred thousand dollars. I couldn't figure why someone would spend all that money on a wreck, when George Stauffer had a beautiful GT40 all together for three hundred and forty five thousand. Sooooooo! anyone know who bought that chassis and the history of the car?
Re: Why are there two P1009\'s ??

That is very interesting Bill,
I wonder how many times this has been done. When there is that kind of money in it there will always be some unscrupulous person that will try the con.
Andre, that's a funny story. As posted earlier. I confused 1005 as 1009 and that's why I thought there were two. It was
one of those senior moments. I seem to be getting them more frequently. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Hersh /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Re: Why are there two P1009\'s ??

BILL: I am the owner of original GT40 race coupe #P1040, the "wreck" that you so kindly referred to as the GT40 that you saw at SAAC-25 at Lime Rock in Year 2000. Yes, the tub was indeed stuffed into the bed of a pickup truck (which was an automotive Pied Piper, as we were trailed by a growing throng of the curious when we rolled into Lime Rock late in the evening before the convention's first day). And yes, the tub was quite well covered in surface rust, as it was bead blasted in 1989 but otherwise left untreated during its storage in my garage (it was never outdoors except at the convention). And yes, it did look like a worthless rusted heap--to the casual or unknowledgable observer. However, a closer examination, as the car has been given numerous times by Ronnie Spain, Jeff Sime, Bill Wonder, Peter Thorp, Bob Ash, and other GT40 experts, would have shown that the tub is a rare commodity: dead original. As opposed to many GT40 race coupes (as well as road cars) that have had major sections replaced (sometimes to the extent of the majority of the chassis) due to severe accidents and/or terminal corrosion, this tub is as it left FAV in February 1966 except for the battle scars/kinks/holes of its racing career. While I don't mean to minimize the significance of these irregularities and certainly do not contend that the chassis is pristine and unmolested, correcting the problems does not require the kind of wholesale reconstruction that so many original GT40s have been subjected to. Certanly there is no comparison with car's like #P1005 that was the original subject of this thread. I have some photos of the pile of weeds, mud, and rusted metal that was apparently the "1005" that was purchased at the auction of the Walther warehouse contents that is unrecognizable as a car. Regarding two cars with the same chassis number, this is in fact the case, as I explained in previous posts under this thread. One is the original Scuderia Filipinetti team GT40 #P1040 (mine), as every GT40 reference book that I am aware of with information on specific chassis numbers states. The other is a "Sbarro GT40" that the constructor and owner have unfortunately elected to masquerade as an original. This charade may not have that much more life in it. Although I don't specifically recall which of the GT40s that George Stauffer brought to SAAC-25 was for sale, it was likely either #P1083, a Mk I with no European racing history, or a Mk III. As has often been discussed on this site, there is little to distinguish one original GT40 from another except for its history. The "better" the history--"better" usually referring to the number and importance of races, the prestige of the owners and/or drivers, etc.--the greater the value of the car. A guitar that I've plunked isn't worth very much at all, but if it was cradled in the hands of Clapton, it's value soars. While somewhat brief (three races over two years), my car's racing history was at the "major league" level of the most significant European road races, includes the ultimate road race (Le Mans), ownership by a legendary race team (Scuderia Filipinetti), direct factory support by Ford, and special modifications made only to a very few Ford-supported cars for the '66 Le Mans race. Bill, you should have been more diligent in looking for me at SAAC-25, although I did spend most of my time right next to my GT40 and 427 S/C Cobra. You might have gotten a good deal on the car! Luckily (in retrospect) for me, everyone else at SAAC-25 agreed with your thinking on the value of my GT40 and didn't come within a country mlle of what I wanted for it, so I hit my quarter century anniversary of its ownership a few months ago. Look for info on its restoration on this site in the coming months.
Re: Why are there two P1009\'s ??

Great history lesson on 1012! I remember back when Don Davis sold the car - There was a big controversy over which car was the true original. I thought it was resolved that Don's car was the original but because of the existance of a second car and the controversy that caused, he had to accepted less money. I can't say with certainty how much, but I recall his comments as - it cost him a couple of hundred thousand. At any rate the car sold for a hell of a lot of money and it certainly sold for a lot more than any replica including the most expensive ERA's.
Re: Why are there two P1009\'s ??

There's another story about chassis number duplication. A GT40 was badly crashed and parts were taken from the car to build another one. The chassis number was transferred to the rebuilt car and now after many years the original car will be rebuilt. What chassis number does it use? Difficult one that one.
Hello Andre

I just had to pick up on this line of yours. Which chassis number are you talking about? And would this be the MK II that Superformance is said to be using as a basis of its replica? ;)

Cheers and keep the stories coming.

PS You mentioned Malcolm Guthrie. I'm pretty sure that he raced both 1009s - the original 1009 until it crashed in 1968 (at the Kyalami Springbok?) and was rebuilt, and the Alan Mann 1009, which was built to replace it, with Frank Gardner at Le Mans in 1969.
Re: Why are there two P1009\'s ??

Cobraownr, Thanks for the reply. Great to hear that you are restoring the car. If you ever need any fiberglass work done to the car, let me know, it's what I do for a living.
Re: Why are there two P1009\'s ??

Thanks, Bill. When Sbarro "restored" (HA!) the original #1040 after its Monza '67 barbecue, he must have had Kenworth or Mack Trucks do the new nose and tail clips, as they are definitely industrial-thickness fiberglas and heavy as all get out. I'll keep you in mind as we get towards the time of needing to address some new body pieces.