Why are there two P1009's ??

Re: Why are there two P1009\'s ??

Hi Rob,

I'm confused about all the stories about chassis duplication, rip offs and now the Sbarro story. Hell, will it ever stop. Men often accuse their grannies, mothers, sisters, girlfriends, wives, etc, of intrigue mongering and gossiping but when the ladies retaliate and say that men often behave like overgrown schoolboys, at the risk of letting the side down, I have to agree. Also when the ladies say that they don't start wars, shoot people, drop atom bombs or swop chassis plates, oh dear, I have to agree again! Here endeth the lesson!

The genuine case of the crashed GT40 with parts removed into a rebuilt car and chassis number transferred was told to me by someone who knows the story. It is indeed a tricky situation - to whom does the original number legally belong? It has nothing to do with the new Superformance car. Jimmy bought the FAV drawings and MK11 body panels from a friend in the US and as the saying goes the body panels suffered from the ravages of time. A great deal of time and money has been spent on straightening, reshaping and filling the body sections to prepare them for mould making.

Jimmy is currently in the UK and when he returns I'll ask him about the deal. I'm sure there are no secrets.

Hersh, you speak of senior moments.Welcome to the Club! But isn't it interesting how we can remember events, chapter and verse, that happened 40 years ago but can't remember a damn thing a month ago!

My head is spinning!
Andre 40

 

[Rick Muck- Mark IV]

Re: Why are there two P1009\'s ??

"FAV built only one car with this serial number.................................................................I own all three of them!!!!! :grin:

Just like more 250 GTOs exist today than in the 60's, the potential "upside" of a little creative chassis numbering is just too enticing to some people

That as much documentation and history is know about these cars is lucky, no one really cared about "last years race cars" in the old days...there was a "newer, faster" model coming right behind.

Rick :grin:

 

[Gregg]

Re: Why are there two P1009\'s ??

Andre, If I am not mistaken, the FAV drawings and Mark II panels which Superformance purchased came from a gentlemen who is currently on the forum. As he has not spoken to the issue I presume he would like to remain anonymous.

I sent you a private message without reply. Did you ever receive it?

Rob my understanding is that the car was not an original but an exact replica.

Thanks Gregg

 

Re: Why are there two P1009\'s ??

The genuine case of the crashed GT40 with parts removed into a rebuilt car and chassis number transferred was told to me by someone who knows the story. It is indeed a tricky situation - to whom does the original number legally belong?

Hello Andre

Thanks for putting me right on the Superformance story :grin:.

Regarding your friend's dilemma, this is an interesting case, which will no doubt perpetuate yet more gossip and intrigue. Without knowing the chassis number involved, looking at it simply (although there may be other factors to consider), the way I see it is that there are two scenarios, which largely depend on the correctness of the "other" car.

In the case of the Sbarro car discussed elsewhere, the other car was a fake/replica/call it what you will. The owner of the the car that transpired to have the original restored tub, and which was sold on without the Jean Pierre Van Den Doorn's (the original owner's) knowledge, commissioned Ronnie Spain to produce a report on the car. Ronnie's report confirmed the originality of this tub, and this car is now widely accepted as the original. Van Den Doorn's car is nothing more than a replica with an original chassis tag.

If the rebuilt car was not built with a correct chassis, then there may be an owner out there who will be none too pleased with the news of your friend's car.

However, if the other car was rebuilt with a correct chassis, then the chances are that a situation similar to P1012 will arise, ie two cars with the same chassis numbers, and an interesting history to tell whenever these cars come up for sale.

Other factors to consider may be the racing history of the other car post-rebuild, its ownership, etc, etc.

Either way, the existence of this chassis could affect the value of the other car, one scenario by substantially more than the other. A tricky problem indeed.

Keep us posted.

Rob

 

[Mike Dozier]

Re: Why are there two P1009\'s ??

Speaking of multiple chassis with same #...the car George Stauffer had for sale at Lime Rock is MK II # 1047B, which may still be for sale.

It has quite an interesting history on it's own,
which George did describe vividly in his sales package.
One of the nicest GT's I ever saw.

MikeD

 

Re: Why are there two P1009\'s ??

Hi All,

Following on the above posting with regard to the Mike Hailwood Autospray Lola T210, herewith a pic of the car in the pit lane at Kyalami for the 1970 Nine Hour. Somewhat off the subject of original GT40 chassis numbers, but hopefully of interest.

Seen on the left in red shirt is Jackie Epstein from the UK, who also raced sports cars at the time and who was team manager for the Lola for that year's Springbok Series. On the right in pale yellow shirt is former well-known South African driver, Doug Serrurier, who designed and built some of his own race cars. Doug also raced a Lola T70 Spyder that was sponsored by ice cream manufacturer, Walls. Their ice creams were sold by guys peddling around on three wheeled bicycles with freezer bins up front. Their slogan was 'Stop me and buy one' It was kinda cute to see a Lola T70 at 160 mph with that slogan on its sides. The blue Alfa T33 in the background was driven by multiple South African F1 Champion, Dave Charlton, and Paddy Driver.

In the race, at nine o'clock at night with two hours to go, the Lola T210 was leading the two litre class and fifth overall. It sounded beautifully crisp in the night air as it slammed past the pits. In the lead were Jacky Ickx and Ignazio Giunti in a works Ferrari 512, followed by Jo Siffert and Kurt Ahrens in a Martini Porsche 917. Minutes later as Mike exited the second Ess of the Esses, a right hander leading up the hill towards Leeukop (lion's head) bend, the throttle stuck wide open and the Lola kissed the Armco barrier on the left. The greeting lasted for at least 100 yards before a rather bent and sad Lola came to a halt. Ah, the joys of motor racing!

As I mentioned earlier, Andre Verwey, who founded Gemini Transmissions in the UK in later years bought the Lola from Mike at the end of that season and raced it for the following two seasons. He has now returned to South Africa and will be developing Jimmy's new tranny for the GT40.

Watch the Armco. It's hard!
Andre 40

 

Re: Why are there two P1009\'s ??

Paddy Driver's black cat (Chief of Operations) and me inspecting the wreck of the Lola in Paddy's workshop at Red Berry Farm, near the Kyalami Circuit.

Scary to think that the photo was taken over 33 years ago!

We definitely (at least some of us!)get oldt too soon and schmart too late!

Oh for nine lives!
Andre 40

 

[Fred/Belgium]

Re: Why are there two P1009\'s ??

andre,
dont worry, we are like the good quality wines...appreciated more with the age...
Fred

 

[Pete McCluskey.]

Re: Why are there two P1009\'s ??

Fred, Any fine quality wines I come accross don't seem to get the chance to age!! :grin:

 

Re: Why are there two P1009\'s ??

Question for Andre,
I have heard recently that although the ex Malcolm Guthrie P1009 was sold off in the US in exchange for P1012 back in the late 70's , it is back in South Africa and is just up the road from you in Gordon's Bay. Do you have any news to tell us on this or is it "urban legend"??
cheers
Dave

 

Re: Why are there two P1009\'s ??

Hi Dave,

1009 in Gordon' Bay? I think it could be 'urban legend' but one can never be sure.

As you know in recent years foreign buyers have been snapping up properties in the Western Cape at bargain basement prices for them thanks to a weak rand. Some of these people have brought interesting cars with them and don&'t necessarily broadcast the fact. However, Cape Town being the small place it is I'm sure that if an original GT40 turned up my 'spies and informants' would have sniffed out the car!

The only original GT40 in South Africa (apart from those that came out for the Springbok series and left again) belonged to David Cohen who emigrated to Canada several years ago and took the car with him. The GT40 was red and I always thought that the chassis number was 1040 but as this number has been mentioned in a previous posting I'm obviously wrong. It would be interesting to know if David still owns the car or where it is and what the chassis number is. I also don't have Ronnie Spain's book in front of me.

Talking of unusual cars popping up in South Africa a new found English friend, who raced bikes in Europe in the 1970s, moved out here about three years ago and settled in Bredasdorp. As a hobby he deals in classic cars and has tracked down some amazing cars, one being a Daimler that belonged to Mick Jagger. With the car is a visitors book that Jagger kept in the rear seat cocktail cabinet. Apparently everyone who was a passenger in the car had to sign the book and some of the signatures are quite amazing - Dr Henry Kissinger, Dudley Moore, Sammy Davis Jnr, Telly Savallas, Eddie Murphy, Harold Wilson, James Mason, Rod Stewart, Richard Burton, Margaret Thatcher and several others.

Based on prices for autographs of well-known past racing drivers from 500 to 2,000 pounds the book of autographs could be extremely valuable and would make a great collector's item together with the Daimler. In fact as the years roll by and everyone in the book has died (passed on!) it could prove to be a great investment. Later today I'll do a more detailed posting under OFF TOPICS and I'll include pics of the signatures of Dr Kissinger and Dudley Moore.

Another interesting car, also for sale, in Cape Town is an American built replica vintage car, a Clenet, best described as a 1930s Duesenberg look-alike. Only 250 Clenets were built and this car is chassis number 38 which starred in 'Dallas' At one point in the soapie Pam Ewing had a boyfriend, Mark Grayston, who 'owned' the Clenet. The car also subsequently starred in 'Tropical Heat'
.
I'll also do a posting on this car under OFF TOPICS.

I'll see if I can track down 1009 in Gordon's Bay. Have my doubts!

Best wishes
Andre 40

 

[DON SILAWSKY]

Re: Why are there two P1009\'s ??

The only original GT40 in South Africa (apart from those that came out for the Springbok series and left again) belonged to David Cohen who emigrated to Canada several years ago and took the car with him. The GT40 was red and I always thought that the chassis number was 1040 but as this number has been mentioned in a previous posting I'm obviously wrong. It would be interesting to know if David still owns the car or where it is and what the chassis number is. I also don't have Ronnie Spain's book in front of me.
Best wishes
Andre 40

Cohen's GT40 is #P1024. A buddy of mine got a drive in it when it was owned by Brian Anglis in the UK in the early '80s. He tells me that you can probably still see the imprints of his "death grip" on whatever he was holding onto during what was apparently quite an "energetic" ride!

 

Re: Why are there two P1009\'s ??

He does still own the car and recently (last summer) restored it. I had a chance to see all the fiberglass parts being worked on. And i think the car is now blue. Sadly i have never seen the car in 1 peice, even though it is stored in a warehouse 5 blocks from where i live.

 

[40 Bud]

Re: Why are there two P1009\'s ??

Back to Hersh,s question about 2 #1009's. I believe that the car that was at the Kirkhams' for study was the non Alan Mann 1009 and is resident in the San Francisco bay area. The car has one of the earlier type front ends. Not the original type, as seen on the 1964's, but the thinner pointed nose used prior to the shovel nose. The car was, what looks like the typical Ford metallic blue with white stripes and had a light tan - not black - interior. I haven.t seen the car in several years and all of this may have changed by now.

 

[Tagg]

Re: Why are there two P1009\'s ??

Recently I was sent a article by Jerry (JERCARNUT) about 1005 being located in Indiana buried in the ground. Now there seems to be another one. So how did the second one come to be.
All this is very interesting especially when you think of the Sbarro counterfiets and how in the world does the registry handle it.?

Hersh /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Hello Hershal
The story of the two 1009's is simple. The origional car was crashed at Kyalami and returned to England for repair. It was determined that the chassis was too badly damaged and the car was rebuilt using a new chassis and sold to JWA and rebuilt at Allan Mann racing. The damaged chassis was not scrapped and was resurected by Bryan Wingfield and he built a new GT40 using the original repaired Chassis.

Although one is an imposter they are both Historically legit.

Tagg

 

[Allan Feldman]

I would love to know wheither any of this replication would have taken place if there was no monetary gain involved. I was at Brian wingfield's in the 1980's photographing one of the 1012.It was painted red had a Holley carb but the front end was a converted MKI (no wheel humps). I am not taking sides in this post since I do not know all the information I do know it was sent to the USA for auction caught fire burning the holley carb cover and came back unsold.
I remember taking pictures of 1047 (Yellow MKIIA configuration similar front to 1012) at Ed Hubbards shop in Radlett. I knew the original was owned by Pierre Bardinon (I think he was the MD of Pioneer). I have a french magazine showing the car. It is the 1967 Reims winner and is painted pale blue and in MKIIB configuration. As for Macolms Gurthie 1009 was not the reason he got rid of it after the crash to fund his M1 Mirage?
Regards Allan

 

[Fred/Belgium]

Re: Why are there two P1009\'s ??

Paddy Driver's black cat (Chief of Operations) and me inspecting the wreck of the Lola in Paddy's workshop at Red Berry Farm, near the Kyalami Circuit.

Scary to think that the photo was taken over 33 years ago!

We definitely (at least some of us!)get oldt too soon and schmart too late!

Oh for nine lives!
Andre 40

Hi Andre 40

Not sure if you are still on the site.

We bought the Lola T210 and is being rebuilt.
Close to finish and to race at Historic races as from this year.
Do you have more history on the car as we are trying to collect as much as possible info.

Many thanks
Grtz
fred

 

[Brian Kissel]

Looks like Andre hasn’t signed in since 2006.

 

[Ian Anderson]

Andre40 - Andre Loubser

Dear all, I have been asked by Oliver, Andre's nephew, to sadly share the news that Andre ("Andre40") passed away earlier today (Sunday 25th October). Kind regards, Ken.

www.gt40s.com

Sorry but Andre has passed away.

Ian

 

[Brian Kissel]

Sorry to hear that. May he Rest In Peace.

Regards Brian