Conversion of Ford SB to dry sump - educate me

Ron Earp · Jun 14, 2010

So what is involved with the conversion of a Ford SB to a dry sump setup? I've never worked with any dry sump engines before (besides the odd motorcycle engine, hardly an experience) and was wondering what are all the critical components that would be needed. What would the rough cost be of converting an engine over to a dry sump setup?

R

wealdenengineer · Jun 14, 2010

Ron, just completed a conversion as you request, I have schematic layouts and photographic detail if you want, (Martins 548 hp gurney wesllake ) Frank

blueovalz · Jun 14, 2010

It seemed the more I got invovled with my dry sump system, the less I seemed to know about automotive mechanicals (it was a humbling experience). I felt the best advice came from the manufacturer of the dry sump. In my case it was Dailey Engineering. I talked at length on the phone with "the Dailey" (think it was Dave) over a used unit I purchased elsewhere. He willingly provided a lot of knowledge about internal vacuum issues, tank size, pulley sizes, hose size, block venting, tank design to elimnate air, number of stages, etc. It seemed the more questions he answered, the more I asked. Eventually I did purchase some maintenance parts from him, but he was great. When I added it all up (everything, with the primary high cost items at used prices), it was on the north side of 3K, which I understand was cheap for a complete set-up.

cribbj · Jun 14, 2010

+1 for Bill Dailey and his setup.

Dailey's dry sump setup makes the rest look like they were thrown together by amateurs, because in the Dailey setup there's no rat's nest of braided hose for the scavenge lines.

He designs and builds his pans so that all the scavenge passages are machined in, and the pump sits on top of a protrusion of the pan. The only braided lines you'll see will be the return to the accumulator, and the lines to the pressure stage of the pump.

He's usually very prompt with replying to queries, but just FYI, he's currently away for a week (13 June to 20-21st) so email to him may be a bit slow.

2124 · Jun 14, 2010

Ron - the Avaiad website is a gold mine of info and very forthcoming if you call them.

The dry sump I installed on my Kirkham cost about $3500 including a custom oil tank for the right front fender made by Dave Dralle.

speed220mph · Jun 14, 2010

Ron: I cover wet and dry-sump systems in detail in the SB Ford Racing Engine book. It took a lot of time to dig out all of this info and what you can do to engine internals when setting up a dry-sump system. See: http://www.gt40s.com/forum/gt40-tec...resh-off-presses-small-block-engine-book.html

Ron Earp · Jun 17, 2010

Thanks fellows and I'll look into that book.

I'm doing a CBA, so what is the dry sump pan with the least amount of depth? I am assuming a dry sump pan can probably be as low as only one to two inches off the bottom of the block, just enough to clear caps and rotating assembly. Anyone have a minimum dimension for me?

Thanks,
Ron

PS - might have answered a bit on my own. Aviaid's dry sump SB Ford pan is 5.5" from the bottom of the block. My Canton road race pan is 8" from the bottom of the block, so I'm looking at a 2.5" difference in pan depth and thus the entire package (engine location, tranny, headers, and so on) would shift down 2.5" with a dry sump. Trying to get an idea of how much would have to change and what it'd cost.

jimbo · Jun 18, 2010

I've not done one of these, but the book is TERRIFIC. Very well done, obviously took a long time to put together. I can read a chapter at breakfast, and I'm even remembering some of it. You should have made the pages oilproof, though- do you have a laminated version?

EGLITOM · Jun 21, 2010

Ron

my originalstyle aviad GT40 pan allows to sit the engine as low as the bellhousing of the Transaxle allows. With a modification of the adapterplate i could go down another 0.5" , than i would have to modifiy the chassis or the gearbox housing for a even more lower location. In the current location the lowest point of the pan is till app 3/4 inch above the chassis bottom.
So i think with a different oilpan and a Accusump system you will be as good, but for 25% of the costs.

TOM

awatkins · Jun 21, 2010

EGLITOM said:
Ron

my originalstyle aviad GT40 pan allows to sit the engine as low as the bellhousing of the Transaxle allows.
TOM

I believe when the FE engine was stuffed into GT40 they did two things to take this (cg lowering) a little further:

Trimmed off the bellhousing until the ring gear set the lower limit and,
Tilted everything so the engine slopes downard at the front.

OC_ · Jun 21, 2010

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ther; mso-font-pitch:variable; mso-font-signature:0 0 0 0 0 0;} @font-face {font-family:Calibri; panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4; mso-font-charset:0; mso-generic-font-family:swiss; mso-font-pitch:variable; mso-font-signature:-1610611985 1073750139 0 0 159 0;} /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {mso-style-unhide:no; mso-style-qformat:yes; mso-style-parent:""; margin-top:0in; margin-right:0in; margin-bottom:10.0pt; margin-left:0in; line-height:115%; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri; mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri; mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri; mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-bidi;} .MsoChpDefault {mso-style-type:export-only; mso-default-props:yes; mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri; mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri; mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri; mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-bidi;} .MsoPapDefault {mso-style-type:export-only; margin-bottom:10.0pt; line-height:115%;} @page WordSection1 {size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in; mso-header-margin:.5in; mso-footer-margin:.5in; mso-paper-source:0;} div.WordSection1 {page:WordSection1;} --> </style>My brother just happens to have a dry sump system lying around that he would be happy to part with. Send me a pm if you would like details about it.

But to answer you original question, the complexity of converting an engine is dependent on how many stages the pump has. My buddy runs a 3 stage pump in his cobra and he’s never had a problem with oiling. This is the most basic system and has 2 scavenger pumps and 1 that feeds the engine. This system was easy to install and required no machine work on the block. all it needed was a mount for the pump, and the oil pan.

His basic 3 stage system is good enough to never have an oiling issue, but doesnt reap the benefits of the higher stage systems. The idea of those systems is to keep the oil from dripping onto the crank to free up some hp. These systems usually plug the drain holes in the valley of the engine and then a hole is machined in the block so an oil pickup can be installed. You can also get special valve covers that have oil pickups to the pump so that oil doesnt pool in them during hard corning.<o

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Ron Earp · Jun 21, 2010

EGLITOM said:
So i think with a different oilpan and a Accusump system you will be as good, but for 25% of the costs.

TOM

I'm thinking so too. Finding that thinner pan could be a challenge.

OC, thanks, but for now I'm just doing research. I want to find out how much lower I can get it then see if it is worth it.

jac mac · Jun 21, 2010

Ron Earp said:
I'm thinking so too. Finding that thinner pan could be a challenge.

OC, thanks, but for now I'm just doing research. I want to find out how much lower I can get it then see if it is worth it.

That sort of thinking will continue to bite you in the back pocket until there is no wallet left to protect your arse, the money you spend on a dry sump setup will be the most productive you have spent to date- and you should be aware of that given the number of oil surge related problems you have had in your car 'fleet'.

A basic 3 stage system/1pressure-2 scavenge is all you require... JO's TVR runs that now & has done for 6 seasons -- finally failed the roller on the end of two lifters this year after six years on the same engine components, and the failure of those was probably hastened by the decision to try and run it wet sump in the first season... an accusump is really only useful if there is time between oil surge occasions for the accusump to recharge... & on a race circuit that is seldom the case.

Added pic of Sandy G's 3 stage pump that appeared in the gallery @ right time--simple stuff..

awatkins · Jun 21, 2010

Ron Earp said:
Aviaid's dry sump SB Ford pan is 5.5" from the bottom of the block.

One thing about the Aviaid pan (at least the FE version) is that they gain some hieght (lose some ground clearance) by having scavenge pump hoses tied to a "kickdown" on the bottom of the pan. Probably almost an inch. Another reason I like the looks of the Dailey pans.

Ron Earp · Jun 21, 2010

jac mac said:
That sort of thinking will continue to bite you in the back pocket until there is no wallet left to protect your arse, the money you spend on a dry sump setup will be the most productive you have spent to date- and you should be aware of that given the number of oil surge related problems you have had in your car 'fleet'.

Jac Mac there is no doubt you're right, you haven't been wrong with anything else we've discussed. However, with the T70 oiling hasn't been an issue, yet...........

Just sort of evaluating the options, time to next event (3 weeks), and benefits (better oil system, lower cg, lower transaxle, lower half shaft angles). It'll be a pretty big undertaking to swap it all around but I think it needs to be done. Time is the biggest problem - if I could write a check for $XXXX and have it done that'd be great. But where I'm at there isn't anyone around I'd trust to plumb it up and do it right, so like a lot of our race car work we end up doing them ourselves (and sometimes we fark it up too, but given our luck with outside farming out of work vs. time/money, and doing it ourselves, well, the fark up rate is roughly about the same so we might as well save the money and time).

Who's got the best Ford SB dry sump pans with height being a factor? Avaid's are right at 5.5". I'll check Dailey.

awatkins · Jun 21, 2010

>>>Who's got the best Ford SB dry sump pans

Moroso and Canton are also in this business.

awatkins · Jun 21, 2010

awatkins said:
One thing about the Aviaid pan (at least the FE version) is that they ... scavenge pump hoses tied to a "kickdown"

Yikes, just looked at the site again and now at http://aviaid.com/pdfs/164-exclusive_low_profile_billet_aluminum_oil_pans.pdf

is an FE pan 1.7" tall... "in development".... No such SBF pan in evidence though....

Ron Earp · Jun 21, 2010

1" shallower than Avaid:

www.cantonracingproducts.com - 12-444 - 302 SHALLOW DS POWER PAN RH EXITS

awatkins · Jun 21, 2010

awatkins said:
>>>Who's got the best Ford SB dry sump pans

Moroso and Canton are also in this business.

Also:

Barnes
Stefs
Petersons fluid systems
Armstrong Race Engineering

jac mac · Jun 22, 2010

awatkins said:
Yikes, just looked at the site again and now at http://aviaid.com/pdfs/164-exclusive_low_profile_billet_aluminum_oil_pans.pdf

is an FE pan 1.7" tall... "in development".... No such SBF pan in evidence though....

You may be forgetting that the FE is a skirted or Y block, therefore the 1.7" is not relevant to this discussion on SB stuff...

There is no big drama to making your own dry sump pan ..its not rocket science... a saturday afternoon with a few pieces of sheet steel, couple of 'weld in' threaded fittings, a scrap 302 block to bolt it down to while welding & of course a donor SBF pan for the upper half & a gas plant or tig welder... at least that way it should fit your application

Conversion of Ford SB to dry sump - educate me

Ron Earp

Frank Catt

Terry Oxandale

Skinny Man

JohnC

Missing a few cylinders

Pat Buckley

speed220mph

Ron Earp

Jim Rosenthal

EGLITOM

Seymour Snerd

John Milmont

Ron Earp

Jac Mac

Seymour Snerd

Ron Earp

Seymour Snerd

Seymour Snerd

Ron Earp

Seymour Snerd

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