Knock Out Punches!

[Jim Craik]

Al, Pete,

I could be wrong, but I think the times when the wealthy were admired throughout the country was when the wealthy paid a fairly large per cent of their income in taxes.

Then the wealthy started buying off Politicions and even whole political parties to avoid paying money they really do not need, then folks started to feel less admiration.

But do not fear, if you are concerned about the amount of animosity towards wealthy successful people and are looking for a place where success is admired, just come to Silicon Valley. The hard working successful folks here are greatly admired.

I would be more than happy to pay more taxes, if it meant better roads, health care for all, mail on Saturday.................The less greedy, less selfish folks generally have felt that way.

During the 1950s, when the tax rates were the highest, out economy grew faster than ever. Have you noticed, that almost to the day that Reagan started cutting taxs, the economy tanked and deficit exploded. Nothing tricked down, the rich have gotten richer, the poor poorer.

When folks like the Kotch brothers can buy politicion, governers and states, just to break unions, cut pay to working class folks, cause think they need more money..................

Do you really have wonder where the anomosity came from?

 

[Doug S.]

The government did not build my business, on the contrary, they put new obstacles in the way continually.

I agree, Al.

Right out of college I had a low-paying job in a large chain store very much like a WalMart. I wanted more, so I started a bonded, licensed contracting business.

I found it was a great way to starve, and it wasn't for lack of hard work. In fact, I was working hard, shingling a skating rink at 3 AM to keep the shingles from squishing under my feet in the hot daytime midwest sun, when I fell off the roof and broke my pelvis and both wrists. I was totally disabled for 9 months, went back to college and got a M.S. degree that kept me employed (well, because it was in the field of education I was underemployed, but still employed) for the rest of my career.

Building a business IS hard work, and I, for one, admire those who can manage to make it work, whether it is a contractors business or a restaurant or an automotive repair shop.

What I don't admire is that there are many who feel that having made that dream a reality through hard work makes them better than others who chose a different path, for whatever reasons they may have had, and there are some of those here.

Pete's wrong....we Americans don't hate the rich, but many of us hate the sense of entitlement the rich seem to display, the condescending way they look down their noses at the working class, and the manner in which the Conservative agenda seems hell-bent on widening the schism between the haves and the have-nots, destroying the middle class in the process.

Cheers?....probably not, but it's the truth, and those of you who see yourselves in this rant know it :idea:.

Doug

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

Al, Pete,

I could be wrong, but I think the times when the wealthy were admired throughout the country was when the wealthy paid a fairly large per cent of their income in taxes.

Then the wealthy started buying off Politicions and even whole political parties to avoid paying money they really do not need, then folks started to feel less admiration.

But do not fear, if you are concerned about the amount of animosity towards wealthy successful people and are looking for a place where success is admired, just come to Silicon Valley. The hard working successful folks here are greatly admired.

I would be more than happy to pay more taxes, if it meant better roads, health care for all, mail on Saterday.................The less greedy, less selfish folks generally have felt that way.

During the 1950s, when the tax rates were the highest, out economy grew faster than ever. Have you noticed, that almost to the day that Reagan started cutting taxs, the economy tanked and deficit exploded. Nothing tricked down, the rich have gotten richer, the poor poorer.

When folks like the Kotch brothers can buy politicion, governers and states, just to break unions, cut pay to working class folks, cause think they need more money..................

You really have wonder where the anomosity came from?

All the sites I look at reflect these numbers. The top 1% pays 28% of the taxes paid. 1% represents about 1.4 million taxpayers, the population of Tucson,AZ, about 18% of the money made and have an average tax rate of 28%. What percentage of all taxes should they pay? Who do you think George Soros pays? Each party has them.

Top 10% (Income Split Point $113,799) Paid 69.94% of Federal Individual Income Taxes
Top 25% (Income Split Point $67,280) Paid 86.34% of Federal Individual Income Taxes
Top 50% (Income Split Point $33,048) Paid 97.30% of Federal Individual Income Taxes
Bottom 50% (Anyone Making Less Than $33,048) Paid 2.7% of Federal Individual Income Taxes

 

[Jim Craik]

But Al,

Here is a graph showing the highest tax rate over time. Notice that the big drop that came just after Reagan took office is almost a reverse of the huge increase in the debt and the decline in the middle class. Big tax cuts are the problem! Big tax cuts ruined the economy everything trickled down to a few rich folks.

Now the bought and paid for politicions are telling us the rich need more tax cuts. You can all see that is just not true!

I really wonder how the very rich have convinced the red states, the poorest states, the poorest folks to vote for giving them money they do not need?



Here again is the graph showing the top tax rate over time:

 

[Doug S.]

All the sites I look at reflect these numbers. The top 1% pays 28% of the taxes paid.

Al....Al.....Al [sigh]

You're still not getting it.

Even with those high percentage numbers, the percentage of total income that the rich pay on is less than the average citizen because of the tax-dodges they have paid legislators to write into law for them. Sure, they may have paid 28% of the taxes paid.....BUT, their income was at the 99%ile!!!!!

If they would just pay taxes on ALL of their income, instead of getting legislation passed that would allow them to be taxed at a lower rate on some of their income, they could (and SHOULD) pay the same percentage of their gross income in taxes as the poverty stricken, who should also pay the same percentage as the wealthy.

You, and Bob, et. al., can post these numbers all day long, all you want, it still does not make the tax inequities RIGHT, no matter how much the rich paid for their representatives to be elected (and Romney and his 80 rich fat-cat friends on that 150' yacht in Tampa, trying to figure out how to get every one of them to raise $1M to help Romney buy the election, are part of the problem, NOT part of the solution!!).

Doug

 

[Bob Fechter]

But Al,

Here is a graph showing the highest tax rate over time. Notice that the big drop that came just after Reagan took office is almost a reverse of the huge increase in the debt and the decline in the middle class. Big tax cuts are the problem! Big tax cuts ruined the economy everything trickled down to a few rich folks.

Now the bought and paid for politicions are telling us the rich need more tax cuts. You can all see that is just not true!

I really wonder how the very rich have convinced the red states, the poorest states, the poorest folks to vote for giving them money they do not need?



Here again is the graph showing the top tax rate over time:

You know, craik, its difficult to summarize your multitudinous lies, so from now on we'll start on a daily basis as they come up.

Beyond a doubt you are a master of pasting misleading charts. You use charts off of liberal websites, the MSNBC/rachael maddow one was classic, to push your agenda.

The one you pasted above is from another obscure website that is nothing but liberal opinions blog.

Here they are ranting about Chic-fil-a of all things;

Chick-Fil-A, Curiosity and Legitimate Rape OR The Fried Chickens Come Home to Roost |

 

[Jim Craik]

Mr Fechter, you are a miserable piece of crap!

Virtually every word that come from you is a lie.

You have not named 80 house Democrats that are members of the communist party. You have provided absolutely no proof that Democrats favor radical Muslim Jihadist, you just lie!

You daily call me a lier, yet have never come up with even one example of anything I have said that is a lie.

I'm through with your miserable crap. You sir exactly what is wrong with our Country!

I blocked your miserable shit filled lies. You can lie all you want, no one will call you on it and no one will care.

As far as I'm concerned you can eat shit and die. Fuck off!

 

[Bob Fechter]

Mr Fechter, you are a miserable piece of crap!

Virtually every word that come from you is a lie.

You have not named 80 house Democrats that are members of the communist party. You have provided absolutely no proof that Democrats favor radical Muslim Jihadist, you just lie!

You daily call me a lier, yet have never come up with even one example of anything I have said that is a lie.

I'm through with your miserable crap. You sir exactly what is wrong with our Country!

I blocked you miserable dillusions, can lie all you want, no one will call you on it and no one will care.

As far as I'm concerned you can eat shit and die. Fuck off!

Hey, Doug, tell craik (you know how this goes, wink, wink) we're all getting together to pitch in for an extensive anger management/narcissism/Tourette Syndrome therapy program for him!

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

Al....Al.....Al [sigh]

You're still not getting it.

Even with those high percentage numbers, the percentage of total income that the rich pay on is less than the average citizen because of the tax-dodges they have paid legislators to write into law for them. Sure, they may have paid 28% of the taxes paid.....BUT, their income was at the 99%ile!!!!!

If they would just pay taxes on ALL of their income, instead of getting legislation passed that would allow them to be taxed at a lower rate on some of their income, they could (and SHOULD) pay the same percentage of their gross income in taxes as the poverty stricken, who should also pay the same percentage as the wealthy.

You, and Bob, et. al., can post these numbers all day long, all you want, it still does not make the tax inequities RIGHT, no matter how much the rich paid for their representatives to be elected (and Romney and his 80 rich fat-cat friends on that 150' yacht in Tampa, trying to figure out how to get every one of them to raise $1M to help Romney buy the election, are part of the problem, NOT part of the solution!!).

Doug

OK 1% of the people pay 28% of all of the taxes paid at an average rate of 28%. You couldn't possibly expect the lowest 50% of wage earners to pay a tax rate of 28%, they pay between 8% and 0% now. You want the lowest wage earner to pay the same rate as high wage earners? "pay the same percentage of their gross income in taxes as the poverty stricken, who should also pay the same percentage as the wealthy."
So a person in poverty making $20,000 should pay (28%) $5,800 in taxes? Both parties have "fat cats in yachts". A lot of the 1% and Corporations are donating to Obama, where do you think that money comes from, welfare recipients?

 

[Doug S.]

From an outsider looking in I am surprised at the amount of animosity towards
Wealthy successful people displayed by you Americans. I have always considered America as a place where if someone became successful they were admired and used as an example to small children. "If you work and study hard you too can be successful, why you could one day become President".
What has changed?

Pete, I replied, but realize it was hidden in a response to someone else's post, here it is:

Pete's wrong....we Americans don't hate the rich, but many of us hate the sense of entitlement the rich seem to display, the condescending way they look down their noses at the working class, and the manner in which the Conservative agenda seems hell-bent on widening the schism between the haves and the have-nots, destroying the middle class in the process.
Doug

To further reply, Pete, IMHO the issue involves the greed of MANY, but not all, in the wealthy class. For example, Romney, who the conservatives want to have running our country, made a huge part of his fortune buying struggling companies, selling them off in parts, and turning working middle-class individuals into just one more place taken up in the multitude of unemployment lines. Now he doesn't want the Americans to find out how much money he made with such despicable acts, so he won't release his tax returns...as I said before, where there's smoke, there's fire.

On the other hand you have Bill Gates, who is arguably one of the most wealthy individuals in the world. He has turned his fortune into a philanthropic organization and is granting it to needy causes worldwide. What's to "hate" about that?

I guess the big issue, for me at least, is that for many of the wealthy money is like a drug, they can NEVER get enough. They are like Scrooge McDuck, the cartoon character, sitting in their own vaults, letting their money run through their fingers, all the while laughing maniacally as they plot their next nefarious deed with which they can further enrich themselves. For Gates, and for a few more, there is nothing but admiration in my heart, for they truly realize when enough is enough and have turned their good fortune (no pun intended there, I assure you) into good deeds that will have worldwide repercussions. I admire those wealthy individuals, obviously despise those like Romney (whose wife was SO proud that they tithe...without mentioning that it is a Mormon requirment, not a voluntary act of generosity).

It is not the rich class that we "average Americans" have a beef with, it is the way in which many of them gained their wealth and how they use it.

"What has changed?", you ask...what has changed is that the real American dream, that of a good life, has for the most part disappeared. While most of us Americans may have dreamed of riches beyond belief, the truth is that the dream that was achievable was to become "comfortable" in the middle class. What has happened is that the Conservatives have made a concerted effort to eviscerate the middle class, in an effort to further enrich themselves. Greed, pure and simple, mixed with a healthy dose of dishonesty (even if that dishonesty is a lie by omission, which in Romney's case is to refuse to disclose the same information that all candidates for POTUS have disclosed for the past few decades at least, all the way back to his own father) results in a bitter tasting "cake" that they would have most Americans eating (an attitude that didn't work out too well for Marie Antoinette...:idea: )

A lot of the 1% and Corporations are donating to Obama, where do you think that money comes from, welfare recipients?

Are you sure, Al?

The most recent information I heard was that Obama had declined contributions from corporations and had placed a $figure limit on private donations....it most assuredly was not in the $1M range!

Doug

 

[Bob Fechter]

And the winner is,,,,,,,,,,,,

The conventions are over and a clear winner of the "knock out punch" has emerged!

I started this thread with some excellent speeches. Very persuasive, but the "knock out punch" of the two events is the following, a clip of the honorable mayor of Los Angeles, Hizoner, Antonio "The Ex Gangbanger" Villaraigosa doing an Academy Award winning performance of "Deer In The Headlight."

We all know the situation, the DNC having its "Peter denies God three times" moment.

The reason the judges chose this clip is because it has shown that the One who began the lowering of the ocean levels and the healing of the earth cannot keep control over his own delegates at his own convention.

The ability to piss off the Jews, Palestinians, Christians, and atheists in one fell swoop shows the mastery of this free world "leader" better than anything a hundred speeches could accomplish.

We will be open to reconsideration if Mr. B.O. decides to fix this with a "Its Bush's fault" speech, but we doubt there is enough steam in that one to dislodge the following clip as "Ultimate Knock Out Punch!"

This has truly broken the back of the liberal mirage! Well done Mr. B.O.!

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kX11IUjkEKs]Reinstating Jerusalem, "God" language met with boos at DNC - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Ian Anderson]

Sorry, Tom, but with all due respect, I feel you are not clear on the concept.

I'm retired. I don't work a job, have no business of my own, just a bum, I guess (go ahead with the pot shots, LB!).

Why should my retirement income, which was deducted from my paycheck all the while I was working, be taxed as earned income while the "deferred income" some butthead financial investor gets at a later date be taxed at a lower rate, the rate of capital gains?

The concept is this....ALL income is income....nothing should be taxed at a lower rate. Everyone should pay the same rate of taxation on their gross income. I should think the well-off should like that suggestion, after all they seem to think they pay way more than their fair share, and they seem increasingly incensed that there are the poverty stricken who pay little or nothing, or even WORSE, get huge refunds because of the Earned Income Credit.

None of that crap should happen...there should be NOWHERE that you can invest that is more tax friendly. Everyone should pay the same percentage, whether Warren Buffet or the most destitute.

Of course, I understand you won't like that idea...you're use to being able to reduce your tax rate through investing in tax-dodges.

I say "Shame on you", Tom...and, please understand, I don't mean that personally, I mean that EVERYONE who thinks that because they are wealthy that they deserve to pay a lower tax rate than I do should be ashamed of that "sense of entitlement"....I mean, after all, aren't the Conservatives trying to get rid of "entitlement programs", why do the wealthy think they are entitled to be taxed at a different rate?

Flame suit on....fire away!

Doug

Doug

Im from across the pond so please explainwhich way it works "over there"
1)
Monthly Wage 2000
Pension payment 500
Net pay 1500
Tax on 1500 at 25% = 375
take home pay 1125

2)
Monthly wage 2000
Tax on 2000 at 25% * 500
Net pay 1500
Less Pension contribution 500
Take home pay 1000

If 1) I believe you have deferred taking your income and as such need to pay tax on your pension when hyou draw it

If 2) then I believe you have already paid tax and your pension is tax free

Now if the "rich" are deferring their income to a later date why should they be taxed on it, before they draw it down?

Just aksing a question and if you are interested it is option 1 over here!
And they have an upper limit on the amount you can draw tax free to be put into a pension (Not that I will ever reach that limit!)

Ian

 

[Doug S.]

Doug

Im from across the pond so please explainwhich way it works "over there"
1)
Monthly Wage 2000
Pension payment 500
Net pay 1500
Tax on 1500 at 25% = 375
take home pay 1125

2)
Monthly wage 2000
Tax on 2000 at 25% * 500
Net pay 1500
Less Pension contribution 500
Take home pay 1000

If 1) I believe you have deferred taking your income and as such need to pay tax on your pension when hyou draw it

Now if the "rich" are deferring their income to a later date why should they be taxed on it, before they draw it down?

Ian

It's been 4 years since I retired, Ian, but I think it was #1, like it is over there.

My issue is that those rich fat-cat corporate CEO's have bought some loophole that allows them to be taxed once they start drawing the "deferred income" down at the rate at which capital gains are taxed, which is about 50% of the tax rate for earned income, which is how my retirement is taxed. Even though it is part of their employment compensation package, it is not even reported as income, AFAIU, until they start drawing it, therefore not even disclosed to the IRS during the time they are actually earning it, but even if it is, and is deducted from total income (as were my contributions to my retirement fund) it is not taxed at the same rate as earned income. How it can qualify as captial gains is a mystery to me!!!

Once again, at the risk of sounding paranoid, it is an issue of the rich using their considerable influence to get laws written that benefit them. Romney just spent an evening on a 150 foot yacht with 80 of his most generous contributors, the purpose of which was for them to generate ways for each of those 80 contributors to raise an additional $1M for Romney. Now, whose "requests", "needs", "desires", etc. do you think he is going to pay attention to should he win the upcoming election....those 80 individuals or the average American who has no hope of earning $1M in their entire lifetime? If Romney wins and wants to pass legislation to further enrich the already wealthy (and that is a given!), will the average citizen, who no doubt earns less than $100,000 a year, have any chance of convincing him that they need a break, or will he listen to those 80 who helped him buy the election?

I know who I think will have his ear.....:thumbsdown:

Doug

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

Pete, I replied, but realize it was hidden in a response to someone else's post, here it is:



To further reply, Pete, IMHO the issue involves the greed of MANY, but not all, in the wealthy class. For example, Romney, who the conservatives want to have running our country, made a huge part of his fortune buying struggling companies, selling them off in parts, and turning working middle-class individuals into just one more place taken up in the multitude of unemployment lines. Now he doesn't want the Americans to find out how much money he made with such despicable acts, so he won't release his tax returns...as I said before, where there's smoke, there's fire.

On the other hand you have Bill Gates, who is arguably one of the most wealthy individuals in the world. He has turned his fortune into a philanthropic organization and is granting it to needy causes worldwide. What's to "hate" about that?

I guess the big issue, for me at least, is that for many of the wealthy money is like a drug, they can NEVER get enough. They are like Scrooge McDuck, the cartoon character, sitting in their own vaults, letting their money run through their fingers, all the while laughing maniacally as they plot their next nefarious deed with which they can further enrich themselves. For Gates, and for a few more, there is nothing but admiration in my heart, for they truly realize when enough is enough and have turned their good fortune (no pun intended there, I assure you) into good deeds that will have worldwide repercussions. I admire those wealthy individuals, obviously despise those like Romney (whose wife was SO proud that they tithe...without mentioning that it is a Mormon requirment, not a voluntary act of generosity).

It is not the rich class that we "average Americans" have a beef with, it is the way in which many of them gained their wealth and how they use it.

"What has changed?", you ask...what has changed is that the real American dream, that of a good life, has for the most part disappeared. While most of us Americans may have dreamed of riches beyond belief, the truth is that the dream that was achievable was to become "comfortable" in the middle class. What has happened is that the Conservatives have made a concerted effort to eviscerate the middle class, in an effort to further enrich themselves. Greed, pure and simple, mixed with a healthy dose of dishonesty (even if that dishonesty is a lie by omission, which in Romney's case is to refuse to disclose the same information that all candidates for POTUS have disclosed for the past few decades at least, all the way back to his own father) results in a bitter tasting "cake" that they would have most Americans eating (an attitude that didn't work out too well for Marie Antoinette...:idea: )



Are you sure, Al?

The most recent information I heard was that Obama had declined contributions from corporations and had placed a $figure limit on private donations....it most assuredly was not in the $1M range!

Doug

Sure Doug, Amy Golman, Bill Maher, Morgan Freeman, to name a few.
Here's some of the "losers" Bain is responsible for. AMC Entertainment, Aspen Education Group, Brookstone, Burger King, Burlington Coat Factory, Clear Channel Communications, Domino's Pizza, DoubleClick, Dunkin' Donuts, D&M Holdings, Guitar Center, Hospital Corporation of America (HCA), Sealy, The Sports Authority, Staples, Toys "R" Us, Warner Music Group and The Weather Channel. Ring a bell? A few people employed at these.
This is senseless, you are never going to convince me and I will never convince you. Now I remember why I stopped posting on here!

 

[Pete McCluskey.]

I agree! Completely senseless.:sad:

 

[Doug S.]

This is senseless, you are never going to convince me and I will never convince you.

Is that all it's about for you, Al? The only objective, the only reward, is convincing someone you are right? We call y'all "Right fighters"...all y'all will fight to the death just to be right, regardless of the value of the issue. Let's assume for argument's sake that you ARE right, convinced me of the futility of my position on some issue related to this upcoming election and I changed my intended vote...it is just one vote, out of the millions that will be cast here in TX. It can't be worth much to anyone but me....but if all you care about is getting that vote changed, you're not clear on the concept.

For me it's different, it's about the exchange of ideas. That's why you hardly ever see me posting links...I'm not trying to convince anyone, I'm exchanging ideas and listening to theirs. In the time I have been posting on these political (and other) threads in the Paddock forum, I have altered my position on a number of things...have become more hard-lined about undocumented immigrants in this country, have become softer on the issue of same-sex marriage. One is more conservative, the other more liberal. I did not come to those changes because I thought someone else was right, I arrived at those decisions after discussions led me to realize I was wrong.

"There are none so blind as those who will not see". To hear you say that you will never change your mind leads me to believe you have blinded yourself to the possibility that another's ideas might even hold value...it saddens me to see you assume that posture, and if that is all you see these discussions for, perhaps it is time for you to stop posting, again. I must say, though, that your inflexible attitude is just exactly like that of the Republican Party in congress....never waver from the party line, regardless if the issue is one that will benefit their constituents, the only issue is keeping the "opponent" from getting what they want. Gridlock in congress has paralyzed our country...many of the conservative posters here complain that the Senate has not proposed a budget for the last 3 years...WHY should they? When B.O. was elected 3 years ago the Republicans blinded themselves to the idea of accepting anything the Democrats would offer...I wouldn't go to the trouble, either, if I knew all that work would be futile, as we both know it would be!

I took LB off "Ignore" because he started voicing HIS opinion, stopped with the senseless attacks (well, for the most part) and started to state what he believes. That's infinitely more interesting to me than being worried about who is right or who is wrong.

He's still crazy as batshit, though :laugh:

Sad.....:sad:

Doug

 

[Jim Craik]

Doug,

You always were better at this, very well said!

 

[Keith]

Mr Fechter, you are a miserable piece of crap!

Virtually every word that come from you is a lie.

You have not named 80 house Democrats that are members of the communist party. You have provided absolutely no proof that Democrats favor radical Muslim Jihadist, you just lie!

You daily call me a lier, yet have never come up with even one example of anything I have said that is a lie.

I'm through with your miserable crap. You sir exactly what is wrong with our Country!

I blocked your miserable shit filled lies. You can lie all you want, no one will call you on it and no one will care.

As far as I'm concerned you can eat shit and die. Fuck off!

For God's sake go and have a lie down before you self destruct Crack...

 

[Bob Fechter]

For God's sake go and have a lie down before you self destruct Crack...

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One says to the other, "Does this taste funny to you?"

 

[Keith]

I'm actually astounded at all of this. Here we have at least 20 to one against Bob (well, it seems like it anyway) all professing him to be a degenerate liar and as crazy as a box of frogs and yet y'all are still replying to him even though some of you have got him on ignore!

I think this says more about y'all than it does about Bobby Boy.

Like this:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0ZQyLsBUxc"]Frank Sinatra - I've Got You Under My Skin - Lyrics - YouTube[/ame]

:laugh:

Go on! Click on it - you know you want to.....