Well this sums it up "These cars do/will do very little mileage" and will be nothing more than a PLAY THING for the uber wealthy. Buy it for the toy / gimick it is not because you are trying to be green. There is NOTHING GREEN ABOUT ANY MMODERN DAY HYBRID. For point of fact go look at the previous threads where I posted both case studies about the ash to ash cost of a prius (which I am sure has a MUCH LOWER ASH TO ASH RATIO THAN THIS) and how it has the same IF NOT GREATER carbon footprint than an H3 or suburban. I have said before that one day it MIGHT be a viable option but TODAY IT IS NOT!!!!! Now as far a petrol engines go why not try to perfect them instead of wasting time and energy on something that at present shows no benefit. See I look at the world as a whole not just a sliver (mpg versus ash to ash ratio). It is a cool concept though. Hope that clarifies things for you.
Porsche 918 order book open!
- Thread starter trevorsummers
- Start date
Damian,
I'm not arguing with your point, except that without pushing these boundaries, technology will never filter down into everyday life. I agree that the ash to ash cost is huge, but this will reduce hugely over time...Remember the cost of ABS when it was fist introduced? Now it is in every car, and the same holds true for any new tech that comes along.
Porsche haven't made this for rich people, they've made it as a technology study that might just recoup some money if they sell a few. Theres no way that they will recoup their investment in this model, but they might in 20 years...
I think there are two points being made simultanously here.
The Porsche 918 is not green. But the technology is interesting.
The second point is about Hybrids in general and this has to do with more mundane cars.
Damian, at this point in time, I agree with you regarding Hybrids. However, evolving technology in it's infancy is always expensive. Hybrids are worthwhile exploring and taking the production costs out, they are green. The production costs are the issue. Lots of energy to produce, but this will come down in future if the technology is widely embraced. If they don't, it will be a waste of time. Jury's out.
For a top marque, the Hybrid technology in their flagship performance model says more politically about the companies intentions on how they intend to trickle down the Hybrid technology to other models than it does about the 918's own green credentials. IMHO
The Porsche 918 is not green. But the technology is interesting.
The second point is about Hybrids in general and this has to do with more mundane cars.
Damian, at this point in time, I agree with you regarding Hybrids. However, evolving technology in it's infancy is always expensive. Hybrids are worthwhile exploring and taking the production costs out, they are green. The production costs are the issue. Lots of energy to produce, but this will come down in future if the technology is widely embraced. If they don't, it will be a waste of time. Jury's out.
For a top marque, the Hybrid technology in their flagship performance model says more politically about the companies intentions on how they intend to trickle down the Hybrid technology to other models than it does about the 918's own green credentials. IMHO
Well, everyone pat Damian on the back because he looks at the world as a whole, not a sliver. Yeah, nobody else here does that - certainly not me, I am an engineer after all.:laugh: Engineers take a systems approach to problem solving which is looking at the whole, not just a sliver.
That is why when I look at it as a whole, I know that nickel is used all over every car on the road, not just a Prius. I also know (because I looked into it) that the nickel plant in Ontario that Toyota is apparently getting the nickel from makes orders of magnitude more nickel per year than Toyota uses and that the quantity of nickel that the Prius is blamed for using is actually the total used for all Toyota products. In other words, this is an overall automotive and industrial issue, not a Prius one.
There are also threads on other websites that mention someone who lives in that area and says those photos of desolation (presumably caused solely by Toyota's Prius) are from decades ago due to the way that factory conducted business back then. Others have already looked into this article you are quoting (being that it has been around for a while) and actually went to the source to get the facts. The numbers they are using in the article regarding environmental damage go back over 2 decades before the plant started cleaning up. That comment about astronauts using it because it resembles the desolate nature of the moon? When do you think that was going on? the 60s! This issue of nickel being such a problem is certainly a major environmental issue, but it is because of all cars, not just the Prius. Nickel is a common alloying element. Look at the whole. Get the facts.
Here's the first line from an abstract in an environmental study regarding the Sudbury area: "Studies are reported on two small lakes at Sudbury, Ontario located close to a nickel-copper smelter which closed in 1972." HAHAHA! Moon landscape! Acid rain! Some of the perpetrators aren't even around anymore! Here's the link: SpringerLink - Water, Air, & Soil Pollution, Volume 85, Number 2
Couple all this with the fact that in order to come up with a better $/mile or carbon/mile number for the Hummer, they ASSUMED it will last 300,000 miles, and the Prius will only last 100,000 miles. Well that automatically gives the Hummer a 3X advantage. Granted, it's the battery pack that is the limiting factor for the Prius, but if you read around it is common for people to be still driving their Prius at 200,000 miles.
Once again, nothing is perfect, but some of us strive to do our part. Having all the cake you want and eating it too while propping your actions up on bogus and faulty articles with a clear agenda is not a healthy way to live.
That is why when I look at it as a whole, I know that nickel is used all over every car on the road, not just a Prius. I also know (because I looked into it) that the nickel plant in Ontario that Toyota is apparently getting the nickel from makes orders of magnitude more nickel per year than Toyota uses and that the quantity of nickel that the Prius is blamed for using is actually the total used for all Toyota products. In other words, this is an overall automotive and industrial issue, not a Prius one.
There are also threads on other websites that mention someone who lives in that area and says those photos of desolation (presumably caused solely by Toyota's Prius) are from decades ago due to the way that factory conducted business back then. Others have already looked into this article you are quoting (being that it has been around for a while) and actually went to the source to get the facts. The numbers they are using in the article regarding environmental damage go back over 2 decades before the plant started cleaning up. That comment about astronauts using it because it resembles the desolate nature of the moon? When do you think that was going on? the 60s! This issue of nickel being such a problem is certainly a major environmental issue, but it is because of all cars, not just the Prius. Nickel is a common alloying element. Look at the whole. Get the facts.
Here's the first line from an abstract in an environmental study regarding the Sudbury area: "Studies are reported on two small lakes at Sudbury, Ontario located close to a nickel-copper smelter which closed in 1972." HAHAHA! Moon landscape! Acid rain! Some of the perpetrators aren't even around anymore! Here's the link: SpringerLink - Water, Air, & Soil Pollution, Volume 85, Number 2
Couple all this with the fact that in order to come up with a better $/mile or carbon/mile number for the Hummer, they ASSUMED it will last 300,000 miles, and the Prius will only last 100,000 miles. Well that automatically gives the Hummer a 3X advantage. Granted, it's the battery pack that is the limiting factor for the Prius, but if you read around it is common for people to be still driving their Prius at 200,000 miles.
Once again, nothing is perfect, but some of us strive to do our part. Having all the cake you want and eating it too while propping your actions up on bogus and faulty articles with a clear agenda is not a healthy way to live.
Pete McCluskey.
Lifetime Supporter
I don't have a problem with advances in technology, or Hybrids, or the capturing of Kinetic energy for later use. All good.
But please stop trying to make me feel guilty about my V8. My angst against the greens is they do that, you are generating to much Co2 I'll tax you on that! Already happening in Australia.
How long before legislation comes out banning V8's or taxing them out of existence?
How long before legislation comes out forcing us all to drive four cylinder hybrids?
Be as green as you like but don't try and force me to join your religion.
But please stop trying to make me feel guilty about my V8. My angst against the greens is they do that, you are generating to much Co2 I'll tax you on that! Already happening in Australia.
How long before legislation comes out banning V8's or taxing them out of existence?
How long before legislation comes out forcing us all to drive four cylinder hybrids?
Be as green as you like but don't try and force me to join your religion.
I tend to be in Pete's party here. Current hybrids I don't like, although I've only had experience with a Prius. But the technology needs to be developed up for the future, so let's see how far it can go. However it HAS become like a religion to some zealous souls, who want to preach. I hate having someone tell me what's good for me and what I must do. Listen to me, I am a preacher and have the true word of God, or take note because I'm an Engineer and I've analysed what you need (no offence Chris P., and I'm a professional Engineer myself). There is a difference between putting forward points of view (or advice), and forcing people.
Actually, the 918 is already using some of the improvements in technology. It uses a Lithium-ion battery which is significantly greener than the Prius and its NiMH battery.
Further, the CNW article in which the lifetime energy cost of the Prius exceeded the H3 was actually corrected a year later by CNW to state the reverse (after much bad press and plenty of data challenging the original assertion).
Ian
Further, the CNW article in which the lifetime energy cost of the Prius exceeded the H3 was actually corrected a year later by CNW to state the reverse (after much bad press and plenty of data challenging the original assertion).
Ian
Thank you.
Cars, no matter how green or refined, are an artificial extravagance in the universe, but lots of fun and enjoyment. We could all be riding horses, which eat renewable grasses at one end and recycle left over waste at the other, to help grow more fuel. But we find cars/trucks/trains/planes more useful and faster.
Accepting that cars are here to stay, in a socially acceptable form that is constantly evolving, it is a wise car maker that starts introducing technologies to see where they lead, with successful innovations trickling down as has been stated. So Porsche are doing the right thing on this basis.
Accepting that cars are here to stay, in a socially acceptable form that is constantly evolving, it is a wise car maker that starts introducing technologies to see where they lead, with successful innovations trickling down as has been stated. So Porsche are doing the right thing on this basis.
So in short we all agree that the IDEA of the thing is great but any real world advantage is just not there. I keep saying (and do not understand why no one seems to read or acknowledge that I KEEP SAYING THIS) the idea is great but the TECH IS NOT THERE YET!!! One day yes; now NO. Lets see trophy cars; lets see race cars, lets se how these things handle any abuse (I know I was always adjusting my RC cars motors etc LOL). Again all I am saying is tha the TECh has not cought up to the idea YET and ANY "CURRENT" HYBRID IS NOTHING MORE THAN A GIMICK!!!!
Ian Anderson
Lifetime Supporter
Damian
I must say I agree with your post.
Lets see Prius Petrol engine and electric
Hell efficiency says that diesel would be a better option to use to recharge the batteries.
That alone means that Toyota missed by a mile!
Ian
I must say I agree with your post.
Lets see Prius Petrol engine and electric
Hell efficiency says that diesel would be a better option to use to recharge the batteries.
That alone means that Toyota missed by a mile!
Ian
Part of the problem with doing a hybrid is customer acceptance. How many people who are willing to buy a hybrid are willing to buy that hybrid if it has a diesel in it? It is a gamble enough to put a hybrid on the market; imagine trying to do that with a diesel which the public (at least here in America) can't seem to accept. This stuff takes time when it comes to the consumer market. If they can't sell them, then they can't fund the R&D and it won't happen. (Or, it will take an unrealistic amount of time.)
I'm sorry, but a lot of the people here who have had negative things to say about hybrids were not just simply saying "the technology isn't here yet." That may have been buried in the meaning of your statements, but the brunt of your arguments have been that the technology isn't worth going after. (Until the last few replies, that is.) Someone even talked about staying with the gasoline engine and making it more efficient. (We've been doing that for a century now, by the way.) Besides, in the scheme of things, hybrids have just been born. Yet look at how good they perform right out of the womb. To a lot of people who are willing to look ahead and keep an open mind, that's a huge step. And they are willing to take part in the future. What is so wrong with that?
What I don't get is the feeling that we are being forced into hybrids (if that's what you mean.) I don't see that at all.
I'm sorry, but a lot of the people here who have had negative things to say about hybrids were not just simply saying "the technology isn't here yet." That may have been buried in the meaning of your statements, but the brunt of your arguments have been that the technology isn't worth going after. (Until the last few replies, that is.) Someone even talked about staying with the gasoline engine and making it more efficient. (We've been doing that for a century now, by the way.) Besides, in the scheme of things, hybrids have just been born. Yet look at how good they perform right out of the womb. To a lot of people who are willing to look ahead and keep an open mind, that's a huge step. And they are willing to take part in the future. What is so wrong with that?
What I don't get is the feeling that we are being forced into hybrids (if that's what you mean.) I don't see that at all.
Damian,
There are race cars. Interestingly enough, that is what started the whole idea behind the 918. Porsche has the 911 GT3 R Hybrid, which it entered into competition last year at the 24 Hours of the Nurburgring and the Petit Le Mans at Road Atlanta. The results of the three races it was entered in has led the engineers to go back and "reboot" with a newer version for this year. Peugeot has had a diesel hybrid in development since 2008. There are cars from Toyota (their Supra HV-R handily won Japan’s Tokachi 24-hour endurance race in 2007) as well as an interesting car from Gumpert-Apollo.
The tech definitely has a ways to go, but it is moving forward rather quickly. And, there are real world advantages for some cars. A 200,000 mile 2002 Prius was road tested by Consumer Reports, and compared their results to a 2001 Prius with 2000 miles road test conducted 10 years ago. The results - almost no difference between them. They also collected data from 36,000 owners and found that the Prius has outstanding reliability and low ownership costs. 200,000+ miles over ~8 years - that's going to see some abuse.
So, yes, the idea is great, and no, it is not a gimmick.
Ian
There are race cars. Interestingly enough, that is what started the whole idea behind the 918. Porsche has the 911 GT3 R Hybrid, which it entered into competition last year at the 24 Hours of the Nurburgring and the Petit Le Mans at Road Atlanta. The results of the three races it was entered in has led the engineers to go back and "reboot" with a newer version for this year. Peugeot has had a diesel hybrid in development since 2008. There are cars from Toyota (their Supra HV-R handily won Japan’s Tokachi 24-hour endurance race in 2007) as well as an interesting car from Gumpert-Apollo.
The tech definitely has a ways to go, but it is moving forward rather quickly. And, there are real world advantages for some cars. A 200,000 mile 2002 Prius was road tested by Consumer Reports, and compared their results to a 2001 Prius with 2000 miles road test conducted 10 years ago. The results - almost no difference between them. They also collected data from 36,000 owners and found that the Prius has outstanding reliability and low ownership costs. 200,000+ miles over ~8 years - that's going to see some abuse.
So, yes, the idea is great, and no, it is not a gimmick.
Ian
+1 Ian.