Should the US Government (Taxpayers) Bail Out the Big Three?

[Brett James-McCall]

OK, so first and foremost. I need to state that I work for one of the big 3; those who know me know which one. Secondly, what I write is my own personal opinion.
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I understand everyone's perspective here both on the pros and cons. Sitting in the inside it is very frustrating to see the banking industry be provided support for far worse decisions & behaviour, in my opinion. I am personally hoping that the current administration over in the US don't try to make an example of the big 3, just like they did with Lehman, as we can know all see with hindsight the confidence that instilled into the markets.
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Whilst I don't condone the behaviour of some of the management in the past and also the, to be quite frank, complete lack of insight into our own business and economic fundamentals; the truth be told, it has been recognised over the past years, and across the globe in these companies actions have been taken to try and resolve these problems. Some faster than others; some also delayed by previous agreements and workers rights issues etc. The truth is though that they were doing something and they were progressing on those plans and starting to demonstrate results until the greed from the banking community (of which car leases were a part) started to unravel.
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In my opinion, whilst Chapter 11 has been talked about it is not quite as simple as seen in the past. Many of the suppliers have gone into Chapter 11 and come out the other end. True. Similarly, as pointed out earlier on the thread, airlines went into Chapter 11 post 9/11 and survived. However, for me there are fundamentals that differ in the mind for the consumer that would not make this as viable option for the big 3, or any other automotive manufacturer.
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Suppliers have the luxury that they are exactly that, Suppliers. They are not the OEM and the public face of what they deliver; in many cases people buying vehicles very rarely know where the components have been sourced from, as manufacturers generally brand the parts for warranty and safety reasons. This affords them the ability to reorganise their affairs without the public seeing this, unless they read the business news a lot, or maybe have invested interest. Airlines whilst be OEM have a limited interaction with an individual. The goods are bought for a particular reason and last as long as that transaction i.e. 1 trip.
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Automotives on the other hand may have the consumers worrying about whether the company can bring itself through the Chapter 11 and also whether warranties, servicing, parts etc will be able to be provided in the long run etc etc In itself it becomes a lot harder to be seen as a viable purchase for the consumer. This was seen, in my opinion, with Rover. True it may take a long time for it to whittle down, but it will happen, and the last few years were only the end of a taper that lasted 20+ years. What will happen to the big 3 would see that 20+ year taper happen in a far shorter period of time. Ultimately this will then impact the suppliers, who will not be able to be viable for even the remaining automotives, even in the south (BMW, Toyota etc) and the piece of the various senators argument of they are all good may come unravelled as well.
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As I said at the beginning all my own thoughts and conjecture; whilst I think the bailouts should happen, it should be used to help ease a taper/path for what is going to happen. That the big 3 are going to be the 'we're really just average or small 3'. This will allow cushion the blow and allow supporting industries to scale at the same rate and also spread their risks around by using their skills in other industries. Allowing it to happen quickly will have a too greater impact not just on NA, but the other countries that they operate in.
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My $0.02 (well there was more, but I have to run to a meeting after lunch)
Brett

 

[Ian K]

Lets pretend, i'm a happily married man with a wife and 2 kids,i'm doing pretty well for myself making mid 6 figures.I go out and buy a house of our dreams 5000sf maybe,couple of cars maybe a nice Benz for the wife an F car for me plus a Land Rover for family transportation.Then run up about 10k on the old platinum card and then.....the unthinkable,stock prices drop,oil prices skyrocket, out of work due to downsizing,can't find a job that will pay any more than 50k and i'm upside down in major debt.Now, due to these rather bad decisions on my part,YOU are asked to bail me out,pay for my problems, and by doing this you will be helping out AMERICA,afterall i am an American citizen,taxpayer and overall a nice guy.Now, we all know money grows on oak trees so its readily available,so lets help ol' Joe out,it won't cost us the taxpayer anything,and we'll feel better just knowing we helped out a fellow American and we know that when Joe is back on his feet he will return the favor,right?
Maybe a little oversimplified,but to me this is my take on bailing out the big 3.Let them fall,scrape their knees a little,get back up and build cars America needs at a price Americans can afford,bring the union wages back in line so the cars are more affordable and we won't have to send the work elsewhere to have it done by people whose yearly salary is the same as some UAW workers weekly salary.Hope i haven't ruffeled some ones feathers,just my $0.2 worth.
Bill

Um, yeah, that's a good analogy because, you know, you going broke puts about
3 million people out of work ...

Ian

 

[Wilby]

And its not my fault isn't? What happened to all the jobs we sent to Mexico and............What about all the nice quality products we buy thats made in Bangaladeesh?We buy them for $19.99 because in this country it would cost $66.49 just to build them at our prices,not including marketing.So go figure,we did this to our selves and now we have to fix it.Hey,i'm guilty as the next guy,when things are good no one thinks about it,only when the sh-t hits the fan does every one get upset and wants to blame somebody.If i did the above, i wouldn't expect anyone to bail me out from my own stupidity and greed.I would do what ever was necessary to turn things around and learn from my mistakes and never let it happen again.As far as 3 million out of work,theres always something to do,maybe not making the big bucks they use to,but use the God given skills to work together and build a better America. Sorry if you have a different opinion,thats what i thought this and other forums were for,and besides the title of the thread is Should we bail out the big 3,and only voiced my opinion.Obviously yours is a bit different.Now that we've agreed to disagree,lets work together to make America a nation thats not dependant on anyone for anything for the good of all Americans.
Bill

 

[40 Bud]

I swore to my self that I would stay out of this. But here goes. As long as we as a nation think there is a free lunch, we will be faced with the "bailing out" someone. We offer unbelievable retirement benefits to our police,fire and civil servants. We employee millions of illegals because they are cheap. As stock owners (individually and thru pension plans etc,) we continue to accept stock option plans, golden parachutes, wages, bonus plans etc. that give obscene compensation to executives, regardless of whether or not they actually perform. Unfortunately these are hard to defeat because the executives hold so much of the stock. Our nation has grown on the backs of easy credit. Just like your own family there does come a day of reckoning. If you out spend your ability to pay/earn, you will go broke and as an individual no one will pickup the pieces for you! It would appear that our day of reckoning as a nation isn't far off! How long can the ponzie scheme work ? I don't know. This problem is not just for us here in the U.S.A. The EC has been subsidizing everything imanginable. How long can that go on without consquences? It seems to me that as these governments are elected by us and empowered by us they will have no option but to tax us enough to pay the bills. The bill will end up coming out of our wallets. It might be in the form of "bailouts" for the banks and corporations, extended unemployment benefits for those affected by business closures, tax deductions for what ever the government may decide is appropriate, increased cost of goods and services to you the consumer,...... etc. etc. etc. So wht ever your own personal solution might be, remember, we empowered the problem makers and we will end up paying the bill!

 

[Wilby]

But why?If i buy a loaf of bread i expect to pay for and will pay for it.If i go in the bakery and i tell them i want 200 loaves of bread i will also pay for it or i will do with out the bread until i have enough to pay for it.If i ''put it on my tab'' and i take the 200 loaves and eat them,i would not expect you to pay for them.But according to your way of thinking,all my neighbors should pay the bill for me even though i ate all the bread.Thats how we got in this mess in first place.All these banks loaned all their money to people that possibly had no intentions of paying it back because,they said if i don't pay for it,my fellow Americans will pay for it for me,oh and Mr Banker,while you're at it,do me a home equity loan and i'll get me a new BEEMER TOO!No problem sir,sign right here!

 

[Peter Jankovskis]

I voted no.

Bankruptcy does not mean that the car companies go out of business. It actually buys them time to restructure, under court supervision, their businesses. Part of that restructuring could and should be the renegotiation of their crippling union contracts.

The bailout "loans" are nothing more than a payoff from certain politicians to the unions for the endorsements and votes that helped them attain their political offices.

 

[Ian K]

Again, I will reiterate - the Big 3 collapsing will have tremendous ramifications on
the US and most likely World Economy.

In the US alone:

Approximately 3 million people will become unemployed in the first year - that almost
doubles unemployment (as of Oct 2008 unemployment was 6.5% or about 4 million
people). Having unemployment hit double figures is considered a very bad thing.
And no, 3 million people will not immediately find new jobs - how can they if 4 million
cannot find them now?

Approximately 2 million people will lose their corporate sponsored health care. Can our
health system afford to absorb those people? Can our taxes afford to help them out?

The suppliers of raw materials and components for the Big 3 also supply much of the
domestic arms of foreign automakers as well. Toyota is very heavily invested in its
US operations. What happens to them when the suppliers also fail? Toyota would suffer
tremendously.

The $700 billion the Treasury asked for has been "created" already. The Big 3 are asking
for about $25 billion of that money. They are not asking for $25 billion more. The $700
billion was originally requested for the banking and lending industry, but the original
plan has already changed, and economists are already saying that the money needs to
be used elsewhere. Trust me, the Big 3 will get their loan - Congress is just using this
opportunity to lash out at them and hopefully instill some oversight and new regulations
to the industry. The result of the domestic automotive industry collapsing would have
a disastrous effect on the US economy, Congress knows this already and is not willing to
take the risk.

Bud, I agree with pretty much everything you are saying.

Ian

 

[Ian K]

I voted no.

Bankruptcy does not mean that the car companies go out of business. It actually buys them time to restructure, under court supervision, their businesses. Part of that restructuring could and should be the renegotiation of their crippling union contracts.

The bailout "loans" are nothing more than a payoff from certain politicians to the unions for the endorsements and votes that helped them attain their political offices.

Again, Chapter 11 Bankruptcy assumes a couple of things.

1) The company remains in business through its restructuring.

2) The company will be able to acquire funding (usually through loans) to keep itself
afloat during the restructuring.

Now, considering the current economy, how will they secure any loans when nobody
is lending money? That is the current credit crunch crisis we see now. Also, who will
buy cars from a company under Chapter 11 - which does not guarantee the company
will come out of Chapter 11. Are you going to buy a car from a company that is looking
to trim costs quickly (quality control?) or may not exist in a year or two (what happens
to the warranty?)

Also, remember - the Big 3 have already renegotiated the UAW contracts. These new
terms will come into effect in 2010. The Big 3 are asking for the loans to get them
through 2009 so that the benefits of the renegotiation can actually take effect. On top
of that, part of this renegotiation involved the pensions getting taken over by another
agency. If any of the Big 3 enter bankruptcy, that pension takeover will not happen.

Ian

 

[Chris Duncan]

Lets pretend, .....Now, due to these rather bad decisions on my part,YOU are asked to bail me out,pay for my problems, and by doing this you will be helping out AMERICA,

You're misinformed, we are not going to "pay for their problems", it's a LOAN. It would be like if you consolidated all your debt for a single loan.

Maybe a little oversimplified,

and innacurate

get back up and build cars America needs at a price Americans can afford,bring the union wages back in line so the cars are more affordable and we won't have to send the work elsewhere

The only problem you mention is the Unions. Nothing about overpriced health care, overpaid CEO's many of whom have misappropriated pension funds, poor management, imbalanced tariffs. All you see is the Unions because that's all they talk about on the TV?

Hope i haven't ruffeled some ones feathers

You're fine as long as you don't take it personally.

What happened to all the jobs we sent to Mexico

Where did you get "we"? It's the corps and the politicians that are selling this country out. Ever since Reagan introduced the tax break for off-shoring.

As far as 3 million out of work,theres always something to do,maybe not making the big bucks they use to

Welcome to your job as a Walmart greeter, cuz that's where it's headed.

lets work together to make America a nation thats not dependant on anyone for anything

Walmart greeters don't make enough to fully support themselves, they are DEPENDENT on government to pick up the slack.

If i ''put it on my tab'' and i take the 200 loaves and eat them,i would not expect you to pay for them.But according to your way of thinking,all my neighbors should pay the bill for me even though i ate all the bread.

Educate yourself, they aren't asking us to pay their bill, they are asking for a loan.

All these banks loaned all their money to people that possibly had no intentions of paying it back because,they said if i don't pay for it,my fellow Americans will pay for it for me,oh and Mr Banker,while you're at it,do me a home equity loan and i'll get me a new BEEMER TOO!No problem sir,sign right here!

The ignorant loan customer is just the symptom, the problem is banking deregulation. Deregulation that allows loans to unqualified customers, allows that loan to be bundled and sold 5 times over. Allows ARM's when they know it's going to put people in foreclosure. Many of those home owners could afford it until the banks intentionally raised rates.

 

[Pete McCluskey.]

Here is another take on the subject. Bailout for GM, Ford, Chrysler dead in the water | The Australian

 

[David Lowe]

Just further evidence how quickly things are changing in the world. Nine News 12:29pm AEST have just announced on their website that the Ford Engine Plant at Geelong have retracted the axing of 400 jobs and plan to invest $21M in plant & equipment to manufacture an engine to meet European standards. Their jobs will be secured beyond 2010.

 

[Rick S.]

and then the corporate bigwigs flew to DC in corporate jets to ask for the loan.

go figure.

 

[40 Bud]

Yeah!! Probably a $400 trip on some airline. There time is very valuable you know - so they will just take a $40,000 flight and save a little time and inconvenience! AND of course they can't all fly on the same jet - each has to take his own. Once you start digging, there is no end to the lunacy. Just so you guys don't get confused,let me tell you that I am a conservative, not a liberal.

 

[Howard Jones]

5 years ago the union I am in had the following retire health care. Each employee paid $25 per month. The company paid all the rest and the employees got to pick between Kaiser, Blue cross, Healthnet, and PERS Medical.

Our contract did not in any way spell out how the company would pay for this benefit or what to do with the $25 per month.

Guess what? The company did nothing at all for 10 years. You see, my company is only 30 years old and the number of retirees was only about 700 with about another 200 dependents totalling about 900 beneficiary's with a active workforce of 3500 at that time. At first the unfunded liability was very small. What me worry!!! Nobody did... including the union.

Then came along Gasby 45. I will make this part short because if I make it long I will be here for hours. The bottom line is the company was looking at being forced by the government to putting the unfunded liability (900 retiree medical beneficiaries) on the books. The immediate outcome would have been a lowering of the bond rating from AA to BBB. THAT IS VERY BAD. Any future borrowing would be much more expensive. SO.......

Contract ends and the company says. You pay for it! Freeze current total benefit cost payment with the employees paying the rest and make the retirees pay any additional future cost for retiree medical. This would have been an increase from $25/mo to aprox $2000/mo/family in 7-9 years for retirees and about the same for actives.

I was on that union bargaining team.
The problem.
Figure out how to do two things.

1. Preserve the AA rating of the company and its budget.
2. Keep costs to employees to a amount that they can afford AND ratify the contract.

We (Union) began with paying for our own actuarial study. Bottom line was... 300 MILLION over 30 years. HOLLY SHIT you should have been in THAT caucus room.

Then I and a couple of other team members starting looking at how to pay for it. It was clear that the participants needed to pay more AND the money needed to be put into trust so that it would only be used to pay for the cost of the benefit going forward.

The company also need to put some (a lot really) in to the trust to raise capital for investment. AND delay using the trust capital to pay benefits for some time until investment growth could begin to add capital gains.

We ended up with a increase to $75/ mo immediately ramping up to $150/mo over 30 years. The company would deposit 3%- 4% of wages into the trust for 13 years before spending it on current benefit costs.

The rate of medical inflation factor we used was 10% (PERS number). And the total projected retirees was 2000 at the apex of the growth and remaining stable thereafter on a employee base of 3500-4000 present to 20 years out then remaining stable.

The union agreed to take no wage increase the first year and then 1% less than the company had budgetted annually for 4 years (3% annual budgeted wage increase)

So far so good. Even with the market the way it is we still are not far off. The target was 7% return annually and we have been able to achieve %5.5. IF, and that I agree it is a big IF, we can capture the eventual rebound with dollar coat averaged dollars we still can come out OK over the first 10 year period.

What saved us was acting early and the union getting off the position of forcing the company to pay for benefits and not caring how they do it.

To put this into context I believe that GM has about 800K active and 2.5 MILLION dependents and retirees. Otherwise I am not sure what the contract looks like but somehow I don't think 25 Billion is close to enough. This is a classic case of squeezing the goose until it is dead.

You gotta let it breath baby.

 

[Chris Duncan]

Everyone needs to take a hit, not just the Unions

healthcare
CEO's
Unions
management
tariffs

I think the biggest problem is healthcare, I can feel it right now paying Cobra, it's my single biggest monthly bill, heaven forbid though if you don't have coverage.

 

[Randy V]

IThen China will make you cars and sell them back to USA
China is then securing their workforce jobs for the future and buying he technology that has been developed elsewhere.
Ian

China Buys or Develops very little of the technology it sells..
As an Industrial Country it's gained exclusive fame and notoriety for stealing the vast majority of what it then turns around and sells...


As to the vote on a Bailout. Remember here the operative is what the Subject line is and what the Poll was on BAIL OUT

I voted NO

I have many highly opinionated thoughts on this that I will share later in greater detail if anyone is interested. But my thoughts at this time are to provide short-term loans with very ((very)) strict guidelines.
Of those guidelines is to;
* Immediately remove the power of the Unions and force them to the bargaining table. If they refuse - They are out.
* With the exception of Electric, Hybrid cars - an across the board increase of 25% fuel economy or the line is put on ICE.
* Immediate cessation of all Sponsorship of Sports or Any other extraneous programs in order to concentrate all funding on the recovery plan. (I know this means auto racing too - but we'll have to deal with it)
* Insure the benefits of the retirees while the recovery period is in play.
* The Board of Directors will be expanded by 1 - Senator or Congressman.
* Immediate audit of all BOD members and Corp Management to ensure they are not drawing additional compensation from Suppliers or ... (conflict of interest).
* Contracts drawn up for the entire BOD's Officers / Upper Mgmt to force them to stay in their current roles unless reviewed and approved by the BOD and US Legislative Branch. (Provides for less turmiol)
* Absolute salary cap of 250k annually.
* Bonuses will be solely driven upon success rate of restructing and profits.
* Loan to be paid with interest within 10 years. No refinancing.

 

[domtoni]

Randy,

Would like to hear your points !!!

I noted in an early post the brokenness of the system, and I hope your comments can address these !!!

Best
Dom

 

[Brett James-McCall]

and then the corporate bigwigs flew to DC in corporate jets to ask for the loan.

go figure.

Knowing how things work, I could imagine it goes something like this :

RW calls his secretary "Hey Delores, I need to save some money on this Washigton trip, can you get AM, and RN on the phone"

5 minutes later...

"Hey guys, Rick here. You know I was thinking we need to show some form of olive branch when we go to Washington. How about we share a plane all 3 of us instead of taking 1 each as usual; it would show we are at least thinking."

"Hell Rick, that's a swell idea idea; I like it."

"Me too Rick, and its great that you are offering GMs plane."

"Well, I, er, didn't quite meaning it like that; if we need to take our plane then I'll need a budget transfer from you both." CLICK "Guys, guys... you still there?"

 

[speed220mph]

Everyone has reservations about the government, any government, getting involved in anything because they can screw it up royaly. Once the government has control and there are problems, they are the first to place the blame elsewhere. For examply, anyone who flys knows the expression, "I'm from the FAA and I'm here to HELP you". That said, check out what Peter DeLorenzo of Autoextremist has to say:

"Detroit. In the last week I have done several live and taped radio interviews across the country and with the BBC in London, a spirited interview with Diane Tucker appearing in The Huffington Post entitled, “Journalist to GOP: You're 100 Percent Wrong About U.S. Automakers,” and I have several national and international TV appearances slated for the next few days too. The subject? The looming implosion of Detroit, of course. People want to know the who, what, when, where, why of this whole thing, and they want to know about the cost, both in terms of taxpayer money needed and the real cost to the economy if the Detroit automakers don’t receive these bridge loans.

The din out there in the media right now is so anti-Detroit, anti-“bailout” that I welcome the opportunity to present the other side of the debate, even if it appears with each passing day that Detroit is running out of time and unable to break through the negative media clutter that envelopes the industry at every turn. And after that death march of a hearing before the Senate Banking Committee yesterday, I’m even more pessimistic.

When Alan Mulally, Rick Wagoner, Bob Nardelli and Ron Gettelfinger sat down in front of the microphones, I knew it wasn’t going to be good, especially when Peter Morici – the relentlessly self-promoting economics professor from the University of Maryland – sat down next to them (more on him in “On The Table” this week – ed). Which Senator was responsible for inviting him is anyone’s guess, but it was clear that this was a setup from the get go.

We then had to watch as each of these U.S. Senators spewed their particular brand of inaccuracies and flat-out misconceptions about the automobile industry in their opening statements. A very few were actually worth listening to – and I mean like two - while most of the others were so blatantly self-serving and out of touch with reality that it was painful to watch. And then some acted like they were just hatched yesterday and were so resolute in their lack of awareness about what was going on and why they had to be there in the first place that it was simply appalling .

I can’t help but think that when enlightened Americans watched these people in action – the people who were actually elected by us to be in office – that they recoiled in horror at the absolutely stunning lack of knowledge, awareness, sense of place, sense of well, anything that was displayed by these Senators yesterday. Is this really the best we can do? I certainly hope not.

At any rate, the message in that hearing room was clear: Detroit put itself in the shape it finds itself in by building bad, low-tech cars that nobody wants. That they were regurgitating the now-obligatory woeful misperception of Detroit that has spread across the country - a Detroit that hasn’t existed for the better part of a decade, by the way - was obvious. The fact that these Senators weren’t aware of the kind of ultra-competitive products that these companies have out now was predictable. And the fact that they weren’t aware of the kind of leading edge technological development that Detroit is actively engaged in was predictable too.

Being clueless in Washington isn’t all that uncommon, unfortunately, but when misconceptions, half-truths and flat-out lies get hoisted up the flagpole as Fact, then it’s no wonder that the leaders of these Detroit car companies were on the defensive and unable to score points with the judges.

Proof of that was on display yesterday when the senators in that hearing room kept talking about restructuring, as if it was a new-fangled idea that these Detroit CEOs weren’t aware of. And they had to be reminded over and over again that Detroit has been restructuring and revamping since 2000, that Detroit hasn’t been operating in a vacuum, that Detroit does build competitive and class-leading products, that Detroit has pioneered new technologies, that Detroit is a viable, relevant, strategic industry that’s part of the crucial fabric of America’s manufacturing base, that the worst financial crisis in seven decades has wreaked havoc on their ability to do business, and on, and on, and on.

Back when things were booming for the domestic automobile industry, the importance of lobbying in Washington and having a consistent and focused image strategy that presented these companies’ positions and outlined their contributions to the American economy wasn’t a top priority. Now that it is, and the Detroit Three are playing catchup - while taking body blows and backed up against the ropes - the Old Detroit is still slamming the New Detroit to the ground.

The Perception Gap that exists out there for the Detroit automakers isn’t narrowing, it’s actually growing wider. Because when Americans get what minimal news they’re willing to digest – and only because it’s pre-packaged in carefully doled-out sound bites – then the Old Detroit will perennially overshadow the New Detroit, hands down.

Detroit may get help from Washington, but left to their own devices - and timetables - it’s looking like the politicians will come up with something that’s too little and too late to actually make a difference.

And that’s a giant bowl of Not Good.

Thanks for listening."


Rants - Autoextremist.com ~ the bare-knuckled, unvarnished, high octane truth...

 

[Garry]

I have been watching this thread with great interest and here is my 2 cents worth ( that's what my IRA is worth by the way).:shy: Speed220 is correct about the changes that Detroit has been trying to initiate. The thing that most people miss is the disparity of health care cost that American manufacturers carry verses many foreign competitors that have government health care. I know, some of you will argue about taxes being unequal in those countries, but the truth about taxes is that Americans pay around 40% of their pay in taxes currently( sales taxes,state income,etc.). The "lazy" American automobile worker can still produce world class cars and these companies drive research and development in a lot of areas that are taken for granted. The suppliers also drive innovation as well.
When Ross Perot complained that the "great sucking sound that you will hear" is american jobs moving offshore with NAFTA he knew what he was talking about. Somehow, the American Auto manufacturers managed to keep the dream alive for millions of people by strategically sourcing only some of their content offshore and giving american based suppliers the chance to retool and compete.
Let's not forget the investments these "Big Three" have made around the world in auto production and the many car companies that exist today because of American innovation, funding, research and development. How many engineers have been blessed to start out at one of these "big Three" right out of university only to contribute to the world their growing expertise in materials, electronics, emissions, etc?
Automobiles are one of the last big manufacturing operations left in America. The Wall Street types (who by the way produce no tangible goods or services) have been sytematically shipping whole industries offshore for over two decades. All of this to get cheaper goods (that's good) just to make bigger bonuses for themselves (that's bad) at the expense of the blue collar working man and middle management types that carry the bulk of the American economy on their collective backs.

Let's give the "Big Three" a chance and make the bailout a loan, ask for restructed wages and benefits for everyone, especially the senior management team, create a tax benefit for buying American Made products (that includes those cars from foreigners produced in the US as well) and let's see who wins in the end. I guarantee there are still a great bunch of people in these companies that can and will turn things around.

I'll shut up now and let someone else rave on!:lipsrsealed: