Socialism Fails when it runs out of other peoples money. M Thatcher.
- Thread starter Pete
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OK it is really hard to debate this without getting personnel but I need to in order to try and get my point across.
I agree totally that a law has been set, and when you decide a life is a life is difficult.
You can have an abortion up to 24 weeks in the UK, so the courts must presume that at 24 weeks a fetus is not a life.
I don't agree Baby's Development in Pictures - 2nd Trimester embryo fetus
The upper limit was set at 24 weeks because the fetus was not considered to be viable — capable of life — before that age. At the time the national survival rate at 23 weeks was below 10%. Now 50% of babies born at 23 weeks survive.
Try telling the parents of a 23 week fetus and babies they are not viable.
I also believe it has become to easy to get an abortion, it is now being used as a form of contraception, or a way of getting rid of something that is not perfect.
For example, I have a lymphedema condition know as Milroy's disease which means that I have very swollen feet and ankles.
It is somewhat unsightly and I do get stared at when wearing shorts, I now don't think I will ever make a male model but that may not be the only reason.
Apart from that it is a bit of a nuisance, although it did get me free shoes from the NHS, and to the front of the queue at Disneyworld before they introduced the fast pass kiss my ass system, but it does not effect what I can do in any way.
However, I have a close family member who I am fairly confident that if they knew one of their children was going to have the same condition they would have terminated the pregnancy.
Again, 2000 years ago an unmarried poor mother was told she was going to have a baby, for one I am glad she decided not to try and get rid of it.
I agree totally that a law has been set, and when you decide a life is a life is difficult.
You can have an abortion up to 24 weeks in the UK, so the courts must presume that at 24 weeks a fetus is not a life.
I don't agree Baby's Development in Pictures - 2nd Trimester embryo fetus
The upper limit was set at 24 weeks because the fetus was not considered to be viable — capable of life — before that age. At the time the national survival rate at 23 weeks was below 10%. Now 50% of babies born at 23 weeks survive.
Try telling the parents of a 23 week fetus and babies they are not viable.
I also believe it has become to easy to get an abortion, it is now being used as a form of contraception, or a way of getting rid of something that is not perfect.
For example, I have a lymphedema condition know as Milroy's disease which means that I have very swollen feet and ankles.
It is somewhat unsightly and I do get stared at when wearing shorts, I now don't think I will ever make a male model but that may not be the only reason.
Apart from that it is a bit of a nuisance, although it did get me free shoes from the NHS, and to the front of the queue at Disneyworld before they introduced the fast pass kiss my ass system, but it does not effect what I can do in any way.
However, I have a close family member who I am fairly confident that if they knew one of their children was going to have the same condition they would have terminated the pregnancy.
Again, 2000 years ago an unmarried poor mother was told she was going to have a baby, for one I am glad she decided not to try and get rid of it.
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Nick,
It's a really tough call, I agree. To have an arbitrary time (24 weeks), not 23.5 weeks, or 24.5 weeks makes for a very static target. I don't doubt that that figure was arrived at after a great deal of research, but it doesn't take into account how far a particular embryo has developed. I make no bones about the fact that I believe that any pregnant woman should have the choice to abort, or to go to full term, but I do completely agree with you that it has become too easy to have an abortion.
The part that most people argue over is whether a bunch of cells is imbued with a "soul" or not, and if so, at which point that takes place, as Jeff also stated. I for one can't answer that, because I'm not God (should he exist in the first place, but that's a different topic )...
All of which means that in many respects, there can be no right or wrong answer. We have a system in place, such as it is, and if that needs to be changed, then so be it, but it needs to be handled with level heads, and without introducing the "soul" issue, as patently we can't know if that exists. If we can approach the issue with scientific and medical reasoning, then there may be a better way to set out the conditions for abortion, but imho we simly can't allow faith to have a place at that particular table (which I know you won't agree with me old mucker...).
It's a really tough call, I agree. To have an arbitrary time (24 weeks), not 23.5 weeks, or 24.5 weeks makes for a very static target. I don't doubt that that figure was arrived at after a great deal of research, but it doesn't take into account how far a particular embryo has developed. I make no bones about the fact that I believe that any pregnant woman should have the choice to abort, or to go to full term, but I do completely agree with you that it has become too easy to have an abortion.
The part that most people argue over is whether a bunch of cells is imbued with a "soul" or not, and if so, at which point that takes place, as Jeff also stated. I for one can't answer that, because I'm not God (should he exist in the first place, but that's a different topic
)...All of which means that in many respects, there can be no right or wrong answer. We have a system in place, such as it is, and if that needs to be changed, then so be it, but it needs to be handled with level heads, and without introducing the "soul" issue, as patently we can't know if that exists. If we can approach the issue with scientific and medical reasoning, then there may be a better way to set out the conditions for abortion, but imho we simly can't allow faith to have a place at that particular table (which I know you won't agree with me old mucker...).
So we have a poor, single lady who just makes end meet and currently can't afford a child. This lady who then becomes pregnant, you would insist that she have the baby.
Now the time comes for delivery, she can't afford health care and of course you do not want to help with that. Food and clothing for the child she can't afford, you turn you back on that as well.
In your brave new Concervative world public day care is out as well, so she has to quit her low paying job.
What a wonderful new selfish Concervative picture you have created!
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You sound like my uncle back in the 1960s with this argument Jim.
How many abortions do PP do annually? 350,000?
Isn't it true that abortion has been the contraceptive of choice by middle america?
And once its done, a people involved in the abortion are scared for life.
Did you hear that interview with ex-PP people who said that their goal was to have as many as 3 (may have been 5) for girls between 13 and 20. Isn't that counterproductive in terms of sex education, irresponsible behaviour being taught, and a money making strategy for PP?
But Domtoni, look at the bright side!
Sure you have you ruined two lives and placed a life time burden on the population, but now you have someone new to call "LAZY" and a new problem to blame on the Democrats![/QUOTE]
Now the time comes for delivery, she can't afford health care and of course you do not want to help with that. Food and clothing for the child she can't afford, you turn you back on that as well.
In your brave new Concervative world public day care is out as well, so she has to quit her low paying job.
What a wonderful new selfish Concervative picture you have created!
********
You sound like my uncle back in the 1960s with this argument Jim.
How many abortions do PP do annually? 350,000?
Isn't it true that abortion has been the contraceptive of choice by middle america?
And once its done, a people involved in the abortion are scared for life.
Did you hear that interview with ex-PP people who said that their goal was to have as many as 3 (may have been 5) for girls between 13 and 20. Isn't that counterproductive in terms of sex education, irresponsible behaviour being taught, and a money making strategy for PP?
But Domtoni, look at the bright side!
Sure you have you ruined two lives and placed a life time burden on the population, but now you have someone new to call "LAZY" and a new problem to blame on the Democrats![/QUOTE]
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An interesting conversation from a bunch of males.
May I ask if anyone participating has ANY personal experience of the process? By personal experience I mean, have been involved with a partner in the decision process (abort/not abort)?
Left or Right it doesn't matter but I would be interested to hear from those qualified persons.
May I ask if anyone participating has ANY personal experience of the process? By personal experience I mean, have been involved with a partner in the decision process (abort/not abort)?
Left or Right it doesn't matter but I would be interested to hear from those qualified persons.
All right, Jeff, if your side is all about "CHOICE" why won't the Choice organization offer ultrasounds to their clients?
Real simple, here's the link;
choice clinics block ultrasound - Google Search
Jeff Young
GT40s Supporter
You're avoiding the question Mr. Lonesome. It's a deep and difficult one, which is why it is best not debated on internet boards.
Only thing worse is to assume YOU are right and scream that the other side are murderers.
Like I said, keep it up and I'll have you arrested for genocide the next time you sneeze or whack off.
Only thing worse is to assume YOU are right and scream that the other side are murderers.
Like I said, keep it up and I'll have you arrested for genocide the next time you sneeze or whack off.
The question is when does a person become human? At birth, at 24 weeks, at conception. I have my view, and I think most of you know what that is.
And is it really debatable when life starts?
I've never screamed, Jeff, I've stated my opinion, and that of millions more. Its all about opinion, isn't it?
I know a few women who had abortions and it haunts them to this day.
So, why is an ultrasound denied to these women?
When a human egg is fertilized by human semen a DNA string is created that has everything necessary to be a human being. Therefore, abortion is the taking of a human life. Its that simple.
Here is an interesting interview between Huckabee and Abby Johnson, ex-director of PP.
Mike Huckabee interviews Ex-Planned-Parenthood employee Abby Johnson about why she is now "Pro-Life" - YouTube
Yes, I know, it was Fox which doesn't tell the truth. But listen to the words before commenting. And then post a factual rebuttal.
Mike Huckabee interviews Ex-Planned-Parenthood employee Abby Johnson about why she is now "Pro-Life" - YouTube
Yes, I know, it was Fox which doesn't tell the truth. But listen to the words before commenting. And then post a factual rebuttal.
Not me Keith.
Having said that, why would that deny me the right to discuss the concept of abortion :huh:
I don't doubt that in most cases it is a harrowing experience, but not having gone through the process doesn't mean that I am unqualified to talk about (and possibly learn about) it.
Jeff Young
GT40s Supporter
So does your mucus, or your hair, or your skin.
Scientists and doctors are pretty convinced there is no brain activity before some number of weeks (I think its in the 20s). Sure, it is a living group of cells. Is it human? No, it's not that simple.
Scientists and doctors are pretty convinced there is no brain activity before some number of weeks (I think its in the 20s). Sure, it is a living group of cells. Is it human? No, it's not that simple.
Jeff Young
GT40s Supporter
Do you hunt? Have you stepped on bugs? Run over an animal with a car? Sneezed? Masturbated?
In each case, you are killing living cells. But that's not the question. The question is when does a group of cells become "human."
No one can answer that definitively. So the question is how do we allow make that decision for others? The individual, or the state?
A lot of this is about control. You want to control something you don't like. Ok. I get that. But be honest about it. You cannot say something IS a life when science and doctors and the courts don't back you up.
P.S. There is no science or medicine in the Huckabee interview, just religious right jibber jabber.
Here's some interesting "dumbed down" science about conception:
http://hplusbiopolitics.wordpress.c...cy-in-the-life-begins-at-conception-argument/
In each case, you are killing living cells. But that's not the question. The question is when does a group of cells become "human."
No one can answer that definitively. So the question is how do we allow make that decision for others? The individual, or the state?
A lot of this is about control. You want to control something you don't like. Ok. I get that. But be honest about it. You cannot say something IS a life when science and doctors and the courts don't back you up.
P.S. There is no science or medicine in the Huckabee interview, just religious right jibber jabber.
Here's some interesting "dumbed down" science about conception:
http://hplusbiopolitics.wordpress.c...cy-in-the-life-begins-at-conception-argument/
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Jim Craik
Lifetime Supporter
(quote)And this person could be the one who comes up with the cure for cancer or the economy.[/QUOTE]by Domtoni
Yes Domtoni, but statistics show that a child born to a mother who does not want, and can not afford, is much, much, much more likely to end up in prison, than cure cancer.
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Domtoni,
It is very unfortunate, and the percentage is small but thousands and thousands of young mothers have either a drug problem, an alcohol problem or both. But you do not care, you will make them carry the child through.
A child born from and into a drug/alcohol enviorment can face not just medical problems but social emvironmental problems.
But Domtoni, not only do you not care, you would then condemn the mother, even arrest them for child endangerment!
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Jeff,
If you are going to do it on a purely time basis then it seems to me allowing abortion up to 24 weeks is wrong.
Surely the baby is a human and it's brain activity starts before it exits the womb?
World's most premature baby, born at 21 weeks and five days, goes home to her delighted parents
Read more: Earliest surviving premature baby goes home to her parents | Mail Online
Abortion in UK
The latest date you can have an abortion in the UK is when you reach 24 weeks, after 24 weeks it's to late.
I believe it is the same in some states in the USA
Keith,
Very valid point, but I don't think you will ever hear, far to painful and personnel to discuss on a forum. Even two of our closet friends have never felt able to discuss it with us.
Of course the one person with arguably the most right to have a say will never get the chance.
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Jim Craik
Lifetime Supporter
Domtoni,
Let me see if I understand the Consevative way of teaching and handeling the young folks in our society.
No sex education
No condoms
No birth control
Stress only abstinence
Make them carry an unwanted child.
Then provide no medica or financial assistance whatsoever
Blame the mother!!!!
Let me see if I understand the Consevative way of teaching and handeling the young folks in our society.
No sex education
No condoms
No birth control
Stress only abstinence
Make them carry an unwanted child.
Then provide no medica or financial assistance whatsoever
Blame the mother!!!!
Jeff Young
GT40s Supporter
Yes, you've screamed and ranted and stated far more than an opinion. You have conclusively stated that "liberals have offed 50 million+ of their children" thereby committing genocide. Sorry, but you get a big fuck you for saying something like that.
No ultrasound is "denied" to "these women." If they want one they can have one. In fact it is the opposite, people like you are trying to FORCE women to have ultrasounds and watch the entire process.
Get your facts straight.
No ultrasound is "denied" to "these women." If they want one they can have one. In fact it is the opposite, people like you are trying to FORCE women to have ultrasounds and watch the entire process.
Get your facts straight.
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