Note to Conservatives

[Cliff Beer]

Cliff,
It probably wouldn't have been so bad if GM "had" paid off some of their loans. The problem is that they paid off their "government loans +interest" not with their profits, but with TARP funds. Its a sham.

"Confidence in the markets, and the truthfulness of representations being made by those taking in investor dollars are at the core of a properly functioning financial market."

I guess that tells you how well the markets are functioning. They are trying to create confidence with lies and taking your money to boot. Next time you see that CEO swaggering about and telling you how well they are doing, should send shivers down your spine. They are keeping people employed with government handouts and not innovation or progress. Let's see, it has been how many YEARS they have been touting their electric vehicle(the Volt) that has yet do do one mile of the production line..... Yet NISSAN puts one out without as much as a fan fare.

I think what you are saying is correct. It just ain't working that way. Chicago style politics don't allow for it. Those in power just do what they want without the first consideration of what the consequences will be as long as they wind up on top or get their pay. Everyone should be buying Fords and saying to hell with the rest of the corrupt corporations. Let them fail as a lesson to all that survive.


Bill

Agree with you 100% Bill. Yes, the public company CEO's, and the PR machines behind them, are out there swaggering around and making all kinds of unsupported/unsupportable/erroneous statements. They know what and how to say things without making a complete misrepresentation, rather, it's a stretching of the truth with little or no facts in support so it can't come back to bite.

It's what most public company CEO's, and politicians, do very well: knowing their audience so that they can say the right thing at the right time, in a way that makes it all sound so right. Trouble is, half the time (or more) what they're saying is completely cut off from reality or fact or the common man. Frankly, I think the level of fair play and ethics in the Board room is at an all time historic low, and we have them to blame for it. I say vote 'em out at every chance you get, whether it's national election time for politicians, or when a proxy vote shows up in your mailbox for corporate votes.

Board Directors and CEOs are directly responsible for the low level of ethics and confidence in the equity markets. As a group, they've done an absolutely horrible job as leaders in recent times and should be ashamed of themselves. On top of that, most have taken enormous compensation packages while spewing out mostly garbage statements about the performance of the company and what going on at an operational level. It's a complete sham for many public companies - not all, but many, if not most.

The parallel in the political realm is the same. We have very low levels of confidence and trust in our present elected officials and therefore we have even less confidence in the whole notion of government by a few, for the benefit of all.

Frankly, I think we're almost at the boiling over point. People are just plain pissed at politicians and smooth talking CEOs...for good reason.

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

The money used to pay back the $5.8 billion was taken from the $49 billion bailout money in escrow. So in essence, they used our money to pay us back. The escrow bailout is theirs to use, but nothing to have a big celebration over. Let's see, I got $49 from you and another loan of $5.80 from you. I take $5.80 from the $49 dollars and pay you back the $5.80. Yahoo!!! And early too! Let's have a party!

 

[Damian]

To the OP and all of his cohorts ....... WHERE DID YOU GO?????? Funny how THE FACTS have all but closed you out of your thread. I guess you guys need to THINK BEFORE POSTING. I am all for an EDUCATED DEBATE but this was just a waste. Unless the OP was just playing the fool and having some fun with us which I really hope is the case because if not :bash: than I am really worried about him.

 

Commie bastards,,,,,,

COME BACK you cowards,,,, Nazis are wining ,,,,get your hammer and cycle (make sure you get your rabies shot) and FIGHT to the death.

 

[Mike Christian]

nuke everything and let the strongest god sort it out.

 

[Jim Craik]

Sorry guys, I went away for an overnight getaway with my wife, I do have a live.

Had everyone put on their thinking caps, there was no need for the Civil Rights Act. There were no federal laws, nor Amendments, which forbade blacks, browns, yellows, reds, purples or greens from having equal status and protection under the Constitution. All state laws to the contrary should have been repealed. Problem solved.

The issues are simple...those acts singled out and gave SPECIAL privileges to groups that were already represented and accountable under our laws. A law that gives special treatment to some, at the expense of others, IS a loss of personal freedoms.
I am still waiting for the Single White Male act, that protects MY interests.
Because regardless of the assumption, I am not already covered by the Constitution and attendant federal laws, unless you care to shade me with the same umbrella that would have covered women and different skin-tones. Which only reaffirms my assertion, not degrades it.

I'm sorry that your generation, and the generations before you, were too ignorant to behave as logical and rational people, thus forcing these special interest legislative measures. All because the powers-that-be and the contributing populace didn't know how to behave themselves...they needed the Nanny State to tell them how to get along.

posted by Wyoming

Wyoming,

You cant be serious, you considered the Civil Rights act of 1964 be a loss of your freedom??

You consider your loss of the ability to discriminate a loss of your personal freedom!!!!!

No wonder everyone has left Wyoming.

The Civil rights act of 1964 was very simple, it outlawed:
unequal application for voter registration.

And outlawed racial segregation in public schools, the workplace and at facilities that serve the general Public.

And you have a problem with this!!!

You say that far more personal freedoms have been lost under Democratic, administrations than under Republican Administrations. You say that the demos will enlarge government, raise your taxes, take away your guns, let illegal aliens take over the country and then put you up against a wall.

Either you have not been paying attention, only listen to people who lie to you or you are trying to advance a strange agenda.

Here are some thing you might ponder:

The republicans under Ronald Reagan grew the government more than any modern president except Bush2.

The last major gun control law (The Brady Bill) was put forward by the Reagan administration and signed by Ronald Reagan,

The last major illegal alien amnesty bill was pushed through and signed by Ronald Reagan.

The last major tax hike was put through by Bush1.

The republicans gave us several years of both a president and vice president that were not elected (Ford/Rockefeller)

The republicans would gladly take away our right to choose whether to be pregnant.

The Republicans gave us the Patriot Act, a massive loss of personal freedom.

So my friend, if you really worry about government being too large and powerful, if you worry about them taking away your guns, if you worry about illegal aliens and higher taxes, if you worry about the government listening to your conversations and monitoring your email then you need to change you views.

As far as the government putting you up against a wall, do you really think that if a president ANY PRESIDENT ordered a roundup and shooting of American citizens for political reasons that it would happen. Would the ARMY, FBI, Secret Service, Police US Marshals or the Coast Guard follow those orders, NOT A CHANCE!!!

Although there are some militias that just might.

 

[Jim Craik]

As far as the original post, although I thought this was covered early on, obviously the headline I heard on the way to my office was more than a little short on the complete story and a little premature. But I am willing to bet that they will be totally repaid with interest.


ps Faili, please don't tell them that we were really at a seance for comrade Marx.

 

[Jim Craik]

Damian, Wyoming,

I have another thought,

Why are you so against public sponsored heath care when you are obviously for:

Socialized fire protection, socialized Police protection, socialized highway system, socialized Coast Guard, socialized Border Patrol, socialized prisons, socialized Military......

All these Government programs are for the mutual protection of our citizens. What makes mutual protection from health problems so different.

 

[Jim Craik]

Unless you are against the military, boarder patrol, police......

So you don't support the troops?

 

[Jim Craik]

We got a man that will go down as one of the worst presidents in history... CASE CLOSED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!<!-- google_ad_section_end -->

Posted by Damian

I wonder what you base this on, Obama ran on health care reform, was elected by a fairly large margin, has since past health car reform and his approval rating is at 50%, with only 42% disapproval. Additionally, his approval rating is UP since the health car bill passed!
As Ricky says, Splain that Lucy?

Who do you think will defeat Obama, Palin? Romney? Schwarzenegger? (oh that's right he was not born in the US) not likely

 

[QUOTE
ps Faili, please don't tell them that we were really at a seance for comrade Marx.[/QUOTE]

James PLEASE,,,,, I am a RePOOPlican at heart (I know,,,,it is an oxymoron, they generally don't have one).

 

[Jim Craik]

Comrade Sheik

I notice that you skilfully use the words Ox & Moron in your discussion on the republican party.

 

[Doug S.]

We need change but left and right both need an overhaul.

+1, Jack!

You know it's about power and control. A person without the right to arm and defend themselves (or even, God forbid, overthrow a government they find no longer serves their interests) is fodder for the forces that would use those same weapons against them.

our country is making parallel moves to what we have already seen unfold in history...and yet, people refuse to believe it or stop it as it's happening. It's discounted as paranoia, rather than seeing the writing on the wall.

The Declaration of Independence of the Thirteen Colonies
In CONGRESS, July 4, 1776
The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America,
"When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government...."

IMHO, this grants the "people" of the U.S. the right (if not the mandate) to "throw off" (i.e. "OVERTHROW") the government. To believe that just voting the incumbents out will "fix" the problem is just folly, there will be more power-mongers to follow the current ones. We need a new, DIFFERENT government....one that believes it is their job to represent the beliefs of the people who elected them (even if the representative's own personal beliefs do not agree), not one that believes the people elected them to forward their own agenda. What ever happened to the idea of "representation"?

Paranoia runs deep..... (Steven Stills)

"Even paranoids have enemies" Henery Kissinger

"It's not paranoia if they're really after you." (Enemy of the State, 1998)

It's great to see GM pay back a portion of the loaned funds. As others have pointed out, it's only a portion. Of course, the GM PR machine is painting it as a complete vindication....which is a stretch considering a) tax payers still own a good chunk of the company...

Agreed, Cliff! Although GM may have repaid the $5.8M (even if they did so out of unused TARP funds, they have still repaid it), they will not have met their responsibility until they have purchased back all of the stock that we, the citizens of the U.S.A, are current owners of. The government doesn't own that stock....."we, the people" do. GM still has a long way to go before they can toot their own horn, IMHO!

Everyone should be buying Fords and saying to hell with the rest of the corrupt corporations. Let them fail as a lesson to all that survive.
Bill

Bill, it's been a while but I've finally found something we agree on again!

I've not missed Studebaker, Nash, or any of the previously active auto makers that have not survived (with the possible exception of the Tucker automobile :idea: ), but I am a big believer in Darwinism and I believe that the strong should survive and the others should become food for the strong. IMHO the financial industry should have been left to the promise of Darwinism--regardless of how many banks failed their would always be some out there to feed on the leftovers. Even if we had suffered a depression rather than a recession, perhaps we would have eventually emerged with an even stronger economy?

Onward through the fog.......

Doug

 

[Jim Craik]

Doug, it's good to hear from you.

Doug, I do like your point about mechanical Darwinism, but in this instance a civilised society with elected leaders made the decision that this recent downturn which was not necessarily GMs fault was not a good enough reason to let one of our country's last great industrial companies fail. Also, the thousands and thousands of employees who's jobs would have gone overseas were saved.

This was done in the late 70's with Chrysler and we were paid back with interest just as we will be this time. A government occasionally helping is people in a time of need and doing what they feel is best for the country? Who would have thought!

Sure this system can use some tweaks from time to time and needs some now, but to throw out the by far most successful government in the history of the world because you disagree with the current administration, my man, that is one of the few scenarios were the jack boots may come.

Winston Churchill said something like: Capitalism, it's the worst system there is, except for all the others.

Say pal are they really after you?

 

[Doug S.]

Say pal are they really after you?

SHHHHH! I wouldn't want them to hear!

Good to hear you're still fighting for the cause, too!

Doug

 

[Jim Craik]

Its not every day that you can quote Steven Stills, Henry Kissinger, Winston Churchill and Ricky Ricardo!

What a dork, I'll try and cut down on my quoting.

 

[Dalton Veitch]

It's a sideline to the main thread, but I like the quote ''It's not paranoia if they're really after you".

 

[Jim Craik]

Wyoming,

I just went back over some of our earlier posts and I just noted the part about your Brother, Oh man, I am so sorry, I did not know, and if I had I never would have been so flippant about supporting the troops and the draft.

You and your family will be in my thoughts

 

[Roark_John]

Wyoming,

You cant be serious, you considered the Civil Rights act of 1964 be a loss of your freedom??

You consider your loss of the ability to discriminate a loss of your personal freedom!!!!!

No wonder everyone has left Wyoming.

The Civil rights act of 1964 was very simple, it outlawed:
unequal application for voter registration.

And outlawed racial segregation in public schools, the workplace and at facilities that serve the general Public.

And you have a problem with this!!!

AGAIN...the unequal application for voter registration was not a FEDERAL law, it was STATE law in those contested regions. Those state laws should have been repealed. Then there would have been no need to have SPECIAL laws for "special" people. Anytime someone is made a scapegoat for an issue, there is a loss in personal freedoms. One group is made responsible for the failings of another. How equal or fair is that?

You say that far more personal freedoms have been lost under Democratic, administrations than under Republican Administrations. You say that the demos will enlarge government, raise your taxes, take away your guns, let illegal aliens take over the country and then put you up against a wall.

Either you have not been paying attention, only listen to people who lie to you or you are trying to advance a strange agenda.

Here are some thing you might ponder:

The republicans under Ronald Reagan grew the government more than any modern president except Bush2.

I agree. However those runs were not LED by the President, as they are THIS time.

The last major gun control law (The Brady Bill) was put forward by the Reagan administration and signed by Ronald Reagan,

Again, that bill was put forth by a Representative in Congress, not the President, after Reagan's ordeal with his assasination attempt.

The last major illegal alien amnesty bill was pushed through and signed by Ronald Reagan.

The last major tax hike was put through by Bush1.

The republicans gave us several years of both a president and vice president that were not elected (Ford/Rockefeller)

Take that issue up with the Supreme Court, as the order for ascendancy is spelled out by the Constitution.

The republicans would gladly take away our right to choose whether to be pregnant.

No, SOME republicans (of a peculiar RELIGIOUS slant) would take away the right for some people to choose abortion. Birth control, an increase in personal responsibility and self-worth would make that situation moot in all cases but incest and rape.

The Republicans gave us the Patriot Act, a massive loss of personal freedom.

So my friend, if you really worry about government being too large and powerful, if you worry about them taking away your guns, if you worry about illegal aliens and higher taxes, if you worry about the government listening to your conversations and monitoring your email then you need to change you views.

AGAIN...for the umpteenth time...I am NOT a REPUBLICAN. I am an independent. The parties are interchangeable. That's what you can't seem to get through your party-cheerleader head.

None of the Presidents in the last 50 years have done a damned thing about curbing illegal immigration...BOTH PARTIES. That should be an impeachable offense, as they aren't following the laws established in this country.

As far as the government putting you up against a wall, do you really think that if a president ANY PRESIDENT ordered a roundup and shooting of American citizens for political reasons that it would happen. Would the ARMY, FBI, Secret Service, Police US Marshals or the Coast Guard follow those orders, NOT A CHANCE!!!

You must be out of your mind. Ruby Ridge? WACO? How about the syphilis experiments on the Tuskegee Airmen? Would you like to explain how these egregious acts carried out by GOVERNMENT agents and employees happened, if they weren't done by the people you claim wouldn't participate in any fascist movements perpetrated by the state?

Although there are some militias that just might.

Not all militias are right-wing or extremist nutjobs. Some are your neighbors, you just aren't aware of it, because they don't advertise their allegiance in public...for fear of being associated with such glaring negative examples and being hauled away by those same "gubment agents" you hold so dear.

 

[Jim Craik]

AGAIN...the unequal application for voter registration was not a FEDERAL law, it was STATE law in those contested regions. Those state laws should have been repealed. Then there would have been no need to have SPECIAL laws for "special" people. Anytime someone is made a scapegoat for an issue, there is a loss in personal freedoms. One group is made responsible for the failings of another. How equal or fair is that?

Wyoming,

I see you do not understand, the federal law did repeal the state laws.

What part of the Civil Rights act talks of "special people", no were in the law is any "special people" mentioned, It outlaws racial segregation and it outlawed unequal application for voter registration. It just made everyone equal, what is wrong with that?

I agree. However those runs were not LED by the President, as they are THIS time

So republicans growing government is OK if its not the president? That is a very weak argument.

Again, that bill was put forth by a Representative in Congress, not the President, after Reagan's ordeal with his assasination attempt.

Reagan did not have to sign this bill that took away you rights to own some of as you say "toys". Another very weak argument!

AGAIN...for the umpteenth time...I am NOT a REPUBLICAN. I am an independent. The parties are interchangeable. That's what you can't seem to get through your party-cheerleader head

You brought this up with your comment about more personal freedoms being lost under Democrats than Republicans didn't you!

You must be out of your mind. Ruby Ridge? WACO? How about the syphilis experiments on the Tuskegee Airmen? Would you like to explain how these egregious acts carried out by GOVERNMENT agents and employees happened, if they weren't done by the people you claim wouldn't participate in any fascist movements perpetrated by the state?

Oh my, is this the best you can do, you equate Waco and Ruby Ridge with the storm troopers and putting you up against a wall for no reason? Weather you agree with the law or not, these people were fragrantly breaking laws, refused to surrender, shot at and killed Police officers and in the Waco case died in a fire that they could have easily avoided. You are going to have to do better than this!