Police brutality and murders.

Doug S.

The protoplasm may be 72, but the spirit is 32!
Lifetime Supporter
From musician John Legend---"Being against cops killing does not equal being for killing cops."

How profound!!

Cheers to a fellow musician for expressing that when I could not!! :thumbsup:

Doug
 

Larry L.

Lifetime Supporter
Preponderance of evidenve, Larry...preponderance of evidence!
More like a preponderance of accusations and presumptions.


...about that gun...MOST cops carry a "throw-down gun" for exactly that reason.
That's absurd on the face of it. Listen to yourself. Do an infinitesimal number of crooked "COPs" do that? It's certainly possible. But, MOST "COPs"???


Cops are masters at crime scene arrangement, particularly if they committed the crime!!!
Uuuuuh huh...even with umptillion cell phone cameras recording their every move? Can it, and has it happened on occasion? Again - odds are it has...but with nowhere near the frequency you're implying.


Now...as someone around here opined earlier..."I don't have to participate in every argument to which I am invited"...to which I'd add, "nor must I participate to the bitter end in one I've chosen to enter"...which is the point at which I currently find myself.

So, 'I be' done now... :chug:
 
Is it "White Privilege" that let's you think playing "Mustang Sally" (a song stolen from a Black Man) for the ten thousandth time in any way relates you to the incredible abilities of John Legend?

From musician John Legend---"Being against cops killing does not equal being for killing cops."

How profound!!

Cheers to a fellow musician for expressing that when I could not!! :thumbsup:

Doug
 
Well, police have now murdered two more black men in the last two days...fully videoed with cell phones.

What say you all?

Doug
There is the problem right there Doug, the Mericun Powlice have in years gone by managed to cover up there murderous sins.I wonder how the officers report would have read in the absence of the incriminating footage :lipsrsealed:

Bob
 

Doug S.

The protoplasm may be 72, but the spirit is 32!
Lifetime Supporter
There is the problem right there Doug, the Mericun Powlice have in years gone by managed to cover up there murderous sins.I wonder how the officers report would have read in the absence of the incriminating footage :lipsrsealed:

Bob
Agreed, Bob...that is the problem with having law enforcement try to police their own...they have a vested interest in sweeping all the "dirt" they find under the carpet, so to speak.

I tried to get the police department to investigate the abusive incident I described. I was told they asked the officer about it and he denied it. That was enough for them...because the officer denied the brutality about which I complained, it just did not happen.

BTW, there was no racial involvement in my case...the officer was caucasian, too.

Cheers!!

Doug
 
I fear police...and what I do if stopped by an LEO has gotten me out of a ticket (or worse) more than once.

I keep both hands in clear view, one on the steering wheel and the other on the mirror on the outside of the drivers' door. I answer all questions using the word "sir". If the officer asks for ID or insurance/registration information I tell him in a respectful tone, all the while keeping my hands on the mirror and steering wheel, where in my car the documents are located. I then tell the officer that I am going to use my right hand to get the items he requested and ask him if that is alright. I then move very slowly to get the requested information.

Once a DPS officer, after having witnessed the actions I just described, ordered me to get into his car on the passenger's side...I figured I was about to get arrested, or worse, beaten. He just told me that I did not have to tell him every move I was going to make, and I explained that I never want any LEO to view me as any form of threat to their safety.

He thanked me and released me without as much as a warning ticket.

That is a practice I adopted after I was stopped one night about 2AM without explanation, handcuffed and searched, brutalized when I respectfully asked why I was stopped, and then released. I guess some new cop just needed to feel like a big shot, maybe new to the job or just a cop exercising his self-granted authority to be a bully.

So, yeah, I've been on both sides of this equation and know how a rogue cop can turn a law abiding citizen into someone who fears law enforcement and their brutal tactics.

If law enforcement does not abandon their brutal (and even murderous) tactics, we are going to see more and more incidents like occurred in Dallas last night. People will only stand for so much abuse before they start fighting back...with tragic results like occurred last night.

Doug
Old Richard Prior routine "Officer, I am reaching for my license and registration because I don't want to be no fuckin' statistic!"
 

Pete McCluskey.

Lifetime Supporter
Doug, this is not my party and I feel for the families of all the good cops who died in Dallas protecting citizens.
However as an ex military man, let me assure that shooting to injure is a myth perpetuated by Hollywood. All Military personnel and I dare say all police are trained to hit centre mass, it is the only effective way of stopping someone. If a cop injures someone it probably means he aimed for centre mass and was a bad shot, or nervous or both.
 

Doug S.

The protoplasm may be 72, but the spirit is 32!
Lifetime Supporter
I say get all the real facts before making up your mind.
How can one do that, Jack, if the denial by the officer is all they need to close the case?

That is one reason I am in favor of requiring officers to wear body cameras (as long as they do not have the ability to turn the cameras off or erase what the cameras record).

Cheers!

Doug
 

Doug S.

The protoplasm may be 72, but the spirit is 32!
Lifetime Supporter
...as an ex military man, let me assure that shooting to injure is a myth perpetuated by Hollywood. All Military personnel and I dare say all police are trained to hit centre mass, it is the only effective way of stopping someone. If a cop injures someone it probably means he aimed for centre mass and was a bad shot, or nervous or both.
.

That's all good and well, Pete, if you know that the "enemy" is armed and intends to take your life...of course I would use those same tactics as Larry (and you) described, it's kill or be killed in combat.

Stopping someone for a traffic violation (or even investigating a complaint called in by a citizen) is not a combat situation (although, given the recent events that brought about the Dallas tragedy, it is obvious that LEOs must believe that stopping a black man WILL BE a combat situation--that is what the "Black Lives Matter" movement is all about), and the biggest mistake that can be made is to shoot an innocent person, regardless of gender or the color of their skin. Law enforcement personnel are charged with the responsibility to "...serve and protect" the general public, not treat them as enemy combatants.

Our legal system, as rigorous as it is, functions under the belief that it is better to exonerate a hundred guilty parties than to wrongly convict even one. Now, for the life of me I can't imagine why an LEO would presume that it is their option to circumvent that process and kill a civilian just because he may be taking longer than they like to follow directions, or even if the subject were resistant. That is not his job, his job is to subdue a suspected perp so that our legal system can make that determination. If we would rather see 100 guilty parties not convicted than have one wrongly convicted, surely you can realize how exponentially worse it is to kill one innocent party...there is no appealing and overturning THAT "sentence".

By the very nature of the authority our police officers have, they MUST be held responsible for their actions...to do any less would leave them to believe they are omnipotent and subject to no internal restraints at all.

Would you like for you or your wife to be stopped by a trigger-happy cop, particularly one who knew he could commit murder and not have to pay for the consequences of his mistake?

I would not...this is NOT war, and when cops use war-like tactics it is understandable how an ex-military person could use HIS military training against THEM. It happened in Dallas...5 deceased, 7 injured...all by an ex-soldier who was angry over just 2 unfortunate mistakes...LETHAL mistakes.

I've seen it coming for a long time, have even mentioned it a few times on this forum prior to this tragic event.

The protesters are right...ALL lives matter, Pete, not just black lives...it just seems to happen way too often to people with black skin.., at least here in the USA :sad:

Cheers, Pete, :thumbsup: to you for exercising what I call "elegant restraint" in stating your case...you can certainly see that not everyone here does.

Doug
 
The way i see it, because you people are so convinced you need a gun to protect yourself, the LEO are that paranoid about any movement could be reaching for a weapon its shoot first just in case, in this latest indecent the guy was on the ground with 3 LEO's holding him down, and he was a threat, WTF,
I'm in no hurry to ever come over there even for a visit.

kaspa
 

Doug S.

The protoplasm may be 72, but the spirit is 32!
Lifetime Supporter
Peter, I have been through that sort of exercise...keep in mind I worked for TDCJ.

Two things come to mind...in my training we were encouraged to retreat when approached in an aggressive manner in order to have more time to develop a non-lethal response...such as fire a warning shot into a safe area, often times that stops the perp. Second, in the final scenario the trainee had the gun aimed at a non-lethal area (knee or lower). He could easily have stopped that perp in his tracks with a shot to the foot or the leg below the knee (there is too much chance of hitting the femoral artery if you shoot above the knee). He had the gun aimed at the leg, yet he paniced and shot toward the torso. A well trained and competent LEO should be able to keep a cool head and avoid killing a citizen who may just be high on drugs or have an untreated mental disorder.

LEOs undergo very rigorous training and must demonstrate good gun handling, as well as good accuracy, before they are let loose on the street. They SHOULD prioritize non-lethal efforts and only resort to lethal force as a last resort.

I am not without sympathy for the circumstances police officers face...a good friend lost a family member, a sherrif's deputy, when he noticed a car sitting on a country road with two people sitting in it. Believing that they had car trouble he approached the drivers' door to ask if they needed help...he could probably see that the driver had his hand in a potato chip bag, but could not have known that hand was grasping a pistol. He lost his life before he could even realize what hit him, the perp shot him right through that bag as he stood by the drivers' door.

Here's the rub...people make choices and most of the time they know the risks. I had a 32 year career in public education and knew going in that the financial rewards were not going to be great, but the personal rewards would. That sherrif's deputy knew when he went into law enforcement that his life could be cut short because of multiple dangers, and it was 7 years after he signed on with the sherrif's office. He often talked about the dangers but felt the opportunity to help people made it worth the risks.

Life is all about choices...he made his and never looked back. He is one of my heroes and I tell his story every chance I get. IMHO he died an honorable and good death, doing what he loved. We should all be so lucky.

He never shot ANYONE in his 7 years.

It is NOT a capital offense to be resistant or rude to a LEO; that very same LEO should not be allowed to deliver a capital punishment with impunity. That is the function of our court system.

Cheers!!

Doug
 

Steve

Supporter
The way i see it, because you people are so convinced you need a gun to protect yourself, the LEO are that paranoid about any movement could be reaching for a weapon its shoot first just in case, in this latest indecent the guy was on the ground with 3 LEO's holding him down, and he was a threat, WTF,
I'm in no hurry to ever come over there even for a visit.

kaspa
John,
Don't let the media or this forum mess with your head. By and large, America is very safe. I do not worry about my safety. Mass killings are on the rise (although still per capita rare in a country of 315million people) although they are also on the rise in Europe, althought not to the same degree. Here's some statistics from the dept of justice to give you a more sobering reality:

1: Gun violence has steadily fallen since the late 70's/early 80's and continues to fall today.

2: 2/3 of gun related deaths are suicides. Presumable these individuals would have committed suicide even if a gun were unavailable. It's pretty implausable to say the gun did it.

3: After correcting for the above, there were around 8,800 gun related homicides in the US in 2015. There were closer to 10,000 deaths as a result of drunk driving........and yet, curiously, no one is calling for a ban on alcohol

4: Most of the gun violence is centered on very unsafe neighborhoods in urban centers.

President Obama earlier stated that guns are fueling tensions between individuals and police. This is a stretch and has no basis in fact. What is factual is that many of the police killings have occurred in heavily crime ridden neighborhoods.
 

Doug S.

The protoplasm may be 72, but the spirit is 32!
Lifetime Supporter
Funny...but not...true, but not funny!!

Unfortunately, that is exactly the type of circumstance that got 5 LEOs murdered and another 7 injured in Dallas.

The law enforcement community MUST examine its brutal tactics and take responsibility on some level...but they have granted themselves the right to break the law and administer punishment when at is the responsibility of the courts.

Certainly, if a "suspect" is resistant they must be subdued, but that does not require 5 cops beating the suspect with nightsticks...that is just petty, childish bullying.

Doug
 

Keith

Moderator
Funny...but not...true, but not funny!!



The law enforcement community MUST examine its brutal tactics and take responsibility on some level...but they have granted themselves the right to break the law and administer punishment when at is the responsibility of the courts.


Doug
Take your point Doug, but many of us of a certain age remember when "robust" local policing often stopped things getting out of hand later. It can't happen now because the population has been nannied into believing that even criminals have "rights". Sure they do, but many future offences have been stopped in their tracks by a strategic "clip around the ear" by the local cop. Yes I know there were not guns involved, but we grew up with a healthy respect for law & order as a result. Plus, the police got backing from the parents. Thus, you got a smack upside your head from the cop, and a double whammy when you got home..

If you insist that LEO's take responsibility for their "brutal" tactics then you must also insist that the politicians & law makers also take some responsibility and act decisively to remove the root causes of their (LEO's) fears that possibly cause them to over react and this means street crime. Your comments appear to be a little one sided in this respect...imo of course mate :)
 
This is the truth the media will not report on.


John,
Don't let the media or this forum mess with your head. By and large, America is very safe. I do not worry about my safety. Mass killings are on the rise (although still per capita rare in a country of 315million people) although they are also on the rise in Europe, althought not to the same degree. Here's some statistics from the dept of justice to give you a more sobering reality:

1: Gun violence has steadily fallen since the late 70's/early 80's and continues to fall today.

2: 2/3 of gun related deaths are suicides. Presumable these individuals would have committed suicide even if a gun were unavailable. It's pretty implausable to say the gun did it.

3: After correcting for the above, there were around 8,800 gun related homicides in the US in 2015. There were closer to 10,000 deaths as a result of drunk driving........and yet, curiously, no one is calling for a ban on alcohol

4: Most of the gun violence is centered on very unsafe neighborhoods in urban centers.

President Obama earlier stated that guns are fueling tensions between individuals and police. This is a stretch and has no basis in fact. What is factual is that many of the police killings have occurred in heavily crime ridden neighborhoods.
 
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