Police brutality and murders.

Doug S.

The protoplasm may be 72, but the spirit is 32!
Lifetime Supporter
If you insist that LEO's take responsibility for their "brutal" tactics then you must also insist that the politicians & law makers also take some responsibility and act decisively to remove the root causes of their (LEO's) fears that possibly cause them to over react and this means street crime. Your comments appear to be a little one sided in this respect...imo of course mate :)
Point well taken, Keith!

My experiences with law enforcement personnel go waaaay back to the early 70's, when my sister-in-law married a beat cop from Wichita, the largest city in our state. His favorite topic of conversation was to explain in great detail the various manners in which he had brutalized citizens whom he stopped for traffic violations. His favorite method of doing so involved his police flashlight. I don't know if you know the type I'm talking about, so I will describe it...the body holds 5 D-cell batteries and has sharp checkered ridges on it to help avoid slippage in the LEO's hands. He did not hold it by the handle, though, instead he held it by the head where the light bulb is located, allowing him to swing that heavy, sharply incised handle because he said it would easily strip flesh from the citizen's hands or, more to his liking, their foreheads. You probably know how a forehead injury bleeds and his intent was not so much to injure, although you could tell he really enjoyed that component, it was more to blind with the bleeding so that the citizen could not see to protect himself from the addiitional blows that were certain to follow.

So, yeah, you could say I have a long-term revulsion to police brutality...have been brutalized myself that once I previously mentioned (had my hands handcuffed behind my back, forced against the front fender of my car, bent over and had my head repeatedly slammed against the hood...all because I respectfully asked why I was stopped). Keep in mind this was about 2:00 AM so there was no traffic, ergo no witnesses...takes a real brave cop to treat an innocent citizen whom he was charged with the responsibility to "...serve and protect" in that manner, doesn't it???

Just so you know...I have never been arrested or accused of any crime other than misdemeanor traffic violations.

There is a culture of immunity within our nation's law enforcement community, Keith, and it is pretty ugly.

So, yes, I will admit to a bit of bias, as you mentioned, but it has come from 50 years of observation.

I do have a positive experience to report...was driving into a small city late one night when I saw a cop car turn around and approach me from behind very fast. He lit me up, so of course I stopped and "assumed the position". He approached me and asked if I knew why he had stopped me, which I did not. He said I had a headlight out. I explained that it had been an intermittent problem, told him I had purchased the replacement bulb already and asked if I could reach under my seat and get it. He offered to use his flashlight for me so that I could see to accomplish the replacement and wished me well as I went on my way.

There's an old saying: "It only takes one bad apple to spoil the whole barrel." We have a LOT of bad apples in our law enforcement "barrel" and that is, IMHO, why we are experiencing the level of frustration and anger you see on the media.

Cheers, Keith!!! I really admire your diplomatic manner :happy: .

Doug
 
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Randy V

Moderator-Admin
Staff member
Admin
Lifetime Supporter
Preponderance of evidenve, Larry...preponderance of evidence!

...about that gun...most cops carry a "throw-down gun" for exactly that reason. Sure, their fingerprints will be on it...of course, they picked it up at the scene of the crime...but it also has the dead person's fingerprints, they make sure of that!

Most cops will not admit that to anyone except for other individuals who are in the field of criminal justice (how do you think I found out about it???).

Cops are masters at crime scene arrangement, particularly if they committed the crime!!!

Doug
You speak as though you are an expert in the field of law enforcement while you actually held a position within a law enforcement agency for 18 months.
If you have bonafide insider information that legitimizes even one bit of what you have alleged above, you are doing more harm than good by just blasting it out over public media and not brigning it to the attention of the Mayor and Governor's offices..
I've numerous friends that are LEOs..
I've had two cops in my family most of my life and I will tell you right now that they may not have been lily white when it came to driving the speed limits, they were truly dedicated men who gave their lives to the public.. Both went well beyond their calls of duty to protect as well as serve. Everything from being Big-Brothers to young men who were disadvantaged, to delivering babies on the steps of crack houses and back seats of their squads.
What a great disservice you've done for them and anyone else that we've entrusted to uphold the law by casting these accusations as bonafide fact.

You state later that you have basically been cuffed, ruffed and stuffed and then again reference your intimate knowledge of how police departments all operate.
While we share the love of fine automobiles - I think I've learned something about you in this thread that may have been better left as unknown.

Are all cops bad? No. Are all cops good? No.
The one bad apple in the barrell spoiling the lot may certainly be applicable to fruit, but does not apply to human beings. We are all individuals and have our own moral compasses and belief systems. Guilt by association has been disproven more than proven to my knowledge.

What has happened in these deaths are tragic and their families need our support now more than ever.. The solution is not in violence.
 

Doug S.

The protoplasm may be 72, but the spirit is 32!
Lifetime Supporter
No insult to you, your family or friends intended, Randy, just a combination of personal observations and information gained from a variety of sources. I have lived a law abiding life and find the recent events abhorent, as do you, and have never claimed that ALL LEOs are dirty...but it sure is evident that a shocking percentage are from my discussions with not only criminals, but also law enforcement personnel with whom I have enjoyed a long acquaintance...and some with whom the acquaintance could not be characterized as enjoyable.

You are correct...there are good and bad among us all. IMHO that is the reason we need to have high expectations of our LEOs.

It is obvious that those expectations have not been met by a large number of them.

...and here we are...saw a stat on Fox News today that stated public distrust of law enforcement has doubled in the last two years. That is a very short time for public distrust to increase from low 20% to almost 50%.

I realize Fox News is not an unbiased source...just found that stat quite discouraging.

Cuffed and roughed...yes. Stuffed...no. What a shame there were no witnesses with cell phones, it is my considered opinion that the LEO's actions would have differed.

Doug
 
It is NOT a capital offense to be resistant or rude to a LEO; that very same LEO should not be allowed to deliver a capital punishment with impunity. That is the function of our court system.Cheers!!
Doug
Well Doug, tell this the famelies of the 958 Police Officers killed (by THUGS) in the line of duty between 2009-2015.

Second, I highly doubt you went through ANY law-enforcement training. Sure you try to shoot an aggressor in the leg - with the smallest chance to stop the ASSAULT.

If you want to complain - then complain about the 64 dead in 15 hours in Chicago, over the 4th July.....
 

Doug S.

The protoplasm may be 72, but the spirit is 32!
Lifetime Supporter
Well, as I have said before, opinions are like noses, we all have one. You are certainly entitled to yours, as uninformed as it might be.

Doug
 
Well said, Randy! You've always been more than fair here, and it takes a lot to upset you, and this thread certainly should upset every law abiding person. It should also cap off this offensive thread.


You speak as though you are an expert in the field of law enforcement while you actually held a position within a law enforcement agency for 18 months.
If you have bonafide insider information that legitimizes even one bit of what you have alleged above, you are doing more harm than good by just blasting it out over public media and not brigning it to the attention of the Mayor and Governor's offices..
I've numerous friends that are LEOs..
I've had two cops in my family most of my life and I will tell you right now that they may not have been lily white when it came to driving the speed limits, they were truly dedicated men who gave their lives to the public.. Both went well beyond their calls of duty to protect as well as serve. Everything from being Big-Brothers to young men who were disadvantaged, to delivering babies on the steps of crack houses and back seats of their squads.
What a great disservice you've done for them and anyone else that we've entrusted to uphold the law by casting these accusations as bonafide fact.

You state later that you have basically been cuffed, ruffed and stuffed and then again reference your intimate knowledge of how police departments all operate.
While we share the love of fine automobiles - I think I've learned something about you in this thread that may have been better left as unknown.

Are all cops bad? No. Are all cops good? No.
The one bad apple in the barrell spoiling the lot may certainly be applicable to fruit, but does not apply to human beings. We are all individuals and have our own moral compasses and belief systems. Guilt by association has been disproven more than proven to my knowledge.

What has happened in these deaths are tragic and their families need our support now more than ever.. The solution is not in violence.
 

Keith

Moderator
The other side of the coin.

By a Dallas Paramedic...


"I’ve been contemplating for a couple of days about making a post to inform people of EMS and what we really do. But I cant. After these events the passed few days I’ve been unable to bring myself to make it. The reason is, I’ve seen people so up in arms about the very unfortunate deaths that have happened here over the last 3 or 4 days. And I get it, more than you could possibly know. And it hurts so much to see people willing to divide themselves over what has been going on. It makes my heart heavy. It stuns me that its so easy for humans to be so willing to say someone deserves death.
We are tired of going to work. We are tired of being called to an apartment at 4 in the morning to someone who has been shot 6 times over piddly shit. What’s even more tiring is when we sit there and do everything we can to try and give this person another go at life, but we watch life actually leave this person and he ceases to exist. We are tired of having to tell families that we did everything we possibly could have (and the entire time knowing that, telling them this, it doesn’t change a thing) but their loved one has passed away. We are tired of hearing children crying because they’re afraid of losing their parent. We are tired of going to funerals for people we know and have become friends with, who lost their life doing their job. We are tired of seeing everyday people lose their loved ones because of some kind of violence that is solely because one street doesn’t like another. We are tired of seeing violence in the street because everyday we know someone else is going to lose their life over meaningless “turf”. We are tired of seeing how drugs can destroy a family, a neighborhood, and even an entire city.
But no matter how tired we get, we still wake up. We get dressed and we walk out the front door. We get on our trucks and we sit next to a person who is probably equally as tired as the rest of us. We don’t do it for the money because believe me, we don’t make a lot. We wake up every day because, if it was our parents or children out there dying, we would want someone there to help us.
We know that we are seeing you on the worst day of your life. We know that you are in the most pain you’ve ever been in. We know what its like to lose people, because we do it more often than you do. We have held the hand of people as they take their last breath. We have been the last kind face countless people have ever seen. We have held crying mothers, fathers, and children. We have sat late at night wondering what we did wrong, and how we could have been better.
But we climb on a truck every day. We give up holidays with our families to be with yours. Because you need us. We might bitch and moan about having to be up in the wee hours of the morning. But the truth is, we wouldn’t do anything else. — EMS
Me personally. I’m tired of watching the world be so willing to damn people to death based on their job, race, religion, or what the hell ever. If you are willing to think that thought, you don’t value human life. Take it from anyone of us. In the last moments of someones life you see them for who they really are. More often than not, they are scared. And honestly, I’m scared when I watch it happen. My heart slams my chest in agony and all I can think is “DO SOMETHING, ANYTHING YOU CAN THINK OF THIS IS WHAT YOU ARE HERE FOR DON’T FAIL!” And very few times have I not failed, sometimes I’m the hero everyone thinks we are. But most of the time the damage someone has decided to do to this human laying in front of me is too great to repair. And no doctor on the planet could save this person. And it kills me to think that this outcome is what someone wanted. It hurts so bad. It hurts so bad because you realize in that moment that human life isn’t something to be taken lightly. It carries a weight you could hardly imagine.
I’m ashamed of some of you people.
But I am also proud of some of you people. The ones who truly care. Please, for me and everyone like me, don’t stop caring.
I WILL make a post about EMS and what we really do. And I will be trying to get with other EMS personnel to post our craziest work stories. But I just needed to get this off my chest first."
 

Jeff Young

GT40s Supporter
What a saddening and embarrassing week for Americans. I'm in the Nordics and the reporting here is damning -- everyone believes there is a race war going on in the US.

I'm a hopeful person and I'd like to think there is a middle ground between (a) President Obama hates the police and none of these killings are racial motivated and (b) all cops are racist and can't be trusted. I'd like to think it looks something like this: we all acknowledge how hard police officers work, nad how underpaid they are, and how we need to improve their training and pay, and we also understand the vast majority are not racist and are trying to do their jobs. On the flip side, we acknowledge that black folks look at statistics and see a huge problem in this country with police violence against them.

Somewhere in that middle ground is a peaceful solution. I hope we find it.
 
Wrong again, jeff;

“On the most extreme use of force — officer-involved shootings — we find no racial differences in either the raw data or when contextual factors are taken into account,” said Harvard economics professor Roland G. Fryer Jr. in the abstract of the July 2016 paper.
Mr. Fryer, who is black, told The New York Times that the finding of no racial discrimination in police shootings was “the most surprising result of my career.”

No racial bias in police shootings, study by Harvard professor shows - Washington Times

What a saddening and embarrassing week for Americans. I'm in the Nordics and the reporting here is damning -- everyone believes there is a race war going on in the US.

I'm a hopeful person and I'd like to think there is a middle ground between (a) President Obama hates the police and none of these killings are racial motivated and (b) all cops are racist and can't be trusted. I'd like to think it looks something like this: we all acknowledge how hard police officers work, nad how underpaid they are, and how we need to improve their training and pay, and we also understand the vast majority are not racist and are trying to do their jobs. On the flip side, we acknowledge that black folks look at statistics and see a huge problem in this country with police violence against them.

Somewhere in that middle ground is a peaceful solution. I hope we find it.
 

Doug S.

The protoplasm may be 72, but the spirit is 32!
Lifetime Supporter
Good read, Bob.

Those stats were generally consistent with racial percentages incarcerated in TDCJ when I worked there...with the exception of Asians, which were a much smaller percentage than expected.

One must wonder if there may be some form of racial bias against minorities when a jury is involved, rather than opting for a bench trial...I think that would be difficult to measure, though...what juror would want to 'fess up to being racially prejudiced if asked?

Cheers!!

Doug
 
Doug the stats may be a good indicator as to why the leo`s target the ethnic minorities in the way they do and also why they are perhaps a little heavy handed in their approach. What seems to be missing in all this information is the reason why and what can be done to turn this situation around.

Bob
 

Steve

Supporter
Doug, that study makes no attempts to ascertain why there are more blacks convicted of crimes, especially violent crimes, then other races. It does not support racial profiling as a cause. It could be just as easily said that blacks are convicted at such a high rate simply because they actually commit the crimes at a higher rate then other races. The authors conclusions seem to lean more to the latter.
 

Doug S.

The protoplasm may be 72, but the spirit is 32!
Lifetime Supporter
Agreed...there was a disproportionate number of black inmates incarcerated at the time I wotked for TDCJ, suggesting that the black population committed crimes at a disproportionate rate...that assumes, of course, that the convictions were righteous.

What surprised me at the time was that a huge percentage of the victims of crimes committed by black "offenders" were black, themselves. That seems to me to contradict the battle cry "Black lives matter".

Cheers!

Doug
 

Steve

Supporter
If you look at the DOJ statistics, black on black violence far outweighs white on black violence. I believe black on white violence also outweighs white on black violence.
 

Jeff Young

GT40s Supporter
Doug the stats may be a good indicator as to why the leo`s target the ethnic minorities in the way they do and also why they are perhaps a little heavy handed in their approach. What seems to be missing in all this information is the reason why and what can be done to turn this situation around.

Bob
So its one of two things right?

Either (a) minorities are naturally/inherently prone to violence OR (2) societal/historical factors are causing higher rates of violence in African American communities.


I'd be interested in what the group thinks about the above. One of the two answers is about as racist as it comes.....
 

Jeff Young

GT40s Supporter
Ah, the study all right wingers instanteously posted yesterday after Allen West stumbled across it. The one:

1. By an econ professor
2. That acknowledges African Americans are far more likely to have the police use physical force against them than whites
3. That then claims this is not true for actual shooting deaths if you account for "extentuating circumstances."

I can cite to you study after study that found black Americans are 4 to NINE times more likely to be shot by the police than whites.

Sorry, the bubble that needs bursting is on your side. And yes, you and Fechter remain part of the problem. My post was asking for BOTH sides to try to recognize the issues we are facing. And yet, there you go, trying to make this all about black folks. Again. Nice job.
 

Steve

Supporter
So Jeff, what would you propose to address the issues that contribute to violence in the black community?

And, as an aside, why do you suppose the media presents at length instances of white on black violence and police on black violence but there's hardly any presentation of police on white or black on white violence (both of which are far more prevalent)?
 

Jeff Young

GT40s Supporter
You have to answer my question first. I need to know what you think is the cause of all this black violence before we can address solutions. Only makes common sense right?
 
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