Socialism Fails when it runs out of other peoples money. M Thatcher.

[Jeff Young]

Because life is a fluid concept, especially human life, any line in the sand is not going to make someone happy. That I agree with.

But scientists and doctors generally agree that the hard wiring in the brain -- the thalamcortial connections (sp?) -- do not form until the 26th week or so. Sometimes earlier, sometimes less. Before that, the fetus is essentially brain dead and probably cannot feel pain and much more certainly is not capable of "thought."

Jeff,

If you are going to do it on a purely time basis then it seems to me allowing abortion up to 24 weeks is wrong.

Surely the baby is a human and it's brain activity starts before it exits the womb?

World's most premature baby, born at 21 weeks and five days, goes home to her delighted parents

Read more: Earliest surviving premature baby goes home to her parents | Mail Online

Abortion in UK
The latest date you can have an abortion in the UK is when you reach 24 weeks, after 24 weeks it's to late.

I believe it is the same in some states in the USA



Keith,

Very valid point, but I don't think you will ever hear, far to painful and personnel to discuss on a forum. Even two of our closet friends have never felt able to discuss it with us.

Of course the one person with arguably the most right to have a say will never get the chance.

 

[domtoni]

But using your logic Jim is why are they not using birth control? The whole outcome of the sexual experience was supposed to be safe sex.

(quote)And this person could be the one who comes up with the cure for cancer or the economy.

by Domtoni

Yes Domtoni, but statistics show that a child born to a mother who does not want, and can not afford, is much, much, much more likely to end up in prison, than cure cancer.

********

Domtoni,

It is very unfortunate, and the percentage is small but thousands and thousands of young mothers have either a drug problem, an alcohol problem or both. But you do not care, you will make them carry the child through.

A child born from and into a drug/alcohol enviorment can face not just medical problems but social emvironmental problems.

But Domtoni, not only do you not care, you would then condemn the mother, even arrest them for child endangerment![/QUOTE]

 

[Jeff Young]

Because the same people who oppose abortion typically oppose birth control, or sex education (like Lonesome Nutjob).

But using your logic Jim is why are they not using birth control? The whole outcome of the sexual experience was supposed to be safe sex.

 

[domtoni]

Originally Posted by JeffYoung
Scientists and doctors are pretty convinced there is no brain activity before some number of weeks (I think its in the 20s). Sure, it is a living group of cells. Is it human? No, it's not that simple.

But if the baby wasn't living, it would grow. Brain activity is no criteria on which to determine whether its human or not. If you want, I will post an ultrasound abortion at 12 weeks. The baby is smart enough to know it will lose its life.

 

[Jeff Young]

Brain activity is no determinant of whether something is human????? So any mass of cells that could "become" human is a human? LIke I said, next time you masturbate, you're going to jail for genocide. And I suspect you didn't bother to read the link I posted.

I've seen teh ultrasounds. Scientists/doctors have concluded it is a reflex to the probe. The baby is not "smart enough to know it will lose its life." It is not capable of cognitive thought or of feeling anything at that point. THe apparatus allowing to do so just doesn't exist.

Quite honestly posting something like that should disqualify you from the real debate over this. It shows you just suck up non-science like the Huckabee video and treat it like Gospel.

I agree a viable fetus, or one that is proven to be self aware and capable of feeling pain should be protected. Science has determined means of figurng out about when that occurs. It's not at conception and it's not because Mike Huckabee showed you a video that disturbed you.

 

[Jim Craik]

But using your logic Jim is why are they not using birth control? The whole outcome of the sexual experience was supposed to be safe sex.

Posted by Domtoni

Well buddy I'm not sure what planet you are from, but here on Earth, when I was a teenager, the whole outcome of the sexual experiance is supposed to be.......well.............lets call it
"out come"

 

[domtoni]

With all of the sex education, available contraceptives et el, we should have very few pregnancies. The Netherlands has done a good job of keeping pre-marital pregnancies to a minimum (the major reason is no benefits from the state, dear old dad or grandpa becomes responsible).

 

[Jim Craik]

With all of the sex education, available contraceptives et el, we should have very few pregnancies. The Netherlands has done a good job of keeping pre-marital pregnancies to a minimum (the major reason is no benefits from the state, dear old dad or grandpa becomes responsible).

Domtoni,

Yes the Netherlands is a very liberal society, but here in the US you conservative strongly fight any:

Sex education in school!
Providing birth control to teenagers!
Providing condoms to teenagers!
Only want to teach abstinance!

Groups here in the US like Planned Parenthood try and implement programs like the Netherlands, but you folks fight them!

Domtoni, why do consevatives insist on pretending that youth do not have sex?

 

[craig]

Brain activity is no determinant of whether something is human????? So any mass of cells that could "become" human is a human? LIke I said, next time you masturbate, you're going to jail for genocide. And I suspect you didn't bother to read the link I posted.

I've seen teh ultrasounds. Scientists/doctors have concluded it is a reflex to the probe. The baby is not "smart enough to know it will lose its life." It is not capable of cognitive thought or of feeling anything at that point. THe apparatus allowing to do so just doesn't exist.

Quite honestly posting something like that should disqualify you from the real debate over this. It shows you just suck up non-science like the Huckabee video and treat it like Gospel.

I agree a viable fetus, or one that is proven to be self aware and capable of feeling pain should be protected. Science has determined means of figurng out about when that occurs. It's not at conception and it's not because Mike Huckabee showed you a video that disturbed you.

Wow you guys are so full of shit.....if you'd just say it like it is and quit this ,,"well when is it really a human,can sperm talk, don't sneeze blah blah blah.. you guy got your talking points down pat..truth is you're talking out your ass and everyone knows it including the so called doctor doing the abortion....just because our law says it's legal, it don't make it right.... I'm done here

 

[Keith]

Originally Posted by JeffYoung
Scientists and doctors are pretty convinced there is no brain activity before some number of weeks (I think its in the 20s). Sure, it is a living group of cells. Is it human? No, it's not that simple.

.

There is some evidence (from this forum at least) to suggest that brain activity may not even be present in middle age... :blank:

 

[Mark]

I can imagine lots of reasons why abortion would appear to be the best option for a woman. I can also see why it is wrong. Perhaps the most difficult of all the questions mankind has to ask.

I have no experience first, second or third hand, only those effected by the issue really have valid right to argue either way IMO

What I would say, is that it will always likely happen, legal or otherwise. Better in the open, and done properly, rather than being forced back into the dark ages of abortions carried out in kitchens by anyone with a knife and a pair of knitting needles.

 

[domtoni]

Domtoni,

Yes the Netherlands is a very liberal society, but here in the US you conservative strongly fight any:

Sex education in school!
Providing birth control to teenagers!
Providing condoms to teenagers!
Only want to teach abstinance!

Groups here in the US like Planned Parenthood try and implement programs like the Netherlands, but you folks fight them!

Domtoni, why do consevatives insist on pretending that youth do not have sex?

The bottom line is they (conservatives) see that they have made mistakes and want to avoid the coming generations to avoid the pain that they suffered (and let me again remind you that I am not a conservative, I am a middle of the roader who would side with you at times if you didn't push me into a corner) and actually see the best way forward is to not have sex.

But schools are not under conservative control, and are taught by people who align themselves more with the progressive ideas (at least that is how all of my educator friends see things). These people (as do schools here in the UK) teach all sorts of methods to avoid pregnancies. But do they work? I would say no if the abortion rate continues to climb (and if you listen to the PP's ex people - its their job to continue to expand their PP business by even giving inaccurate information to girls, causing a pregnancy and then suggesting an abortion).

 

[Jim Craik]

I can imagine lots of reasons why abortion would appear to be the best option for a woman. I can also see why it is wrong. Perhaps the most difficult of all the questions mankind has to ask.

I have no experience first, second or third hand, only those effected by the issue really have valid right to argue either way IMO

What I would say, is that it will always likely happen, legal or otherwise. Better in the open, and done properly, rather than being forced back into the dark ages of abortions carried out in kitchens by anyone with a knife and a pair of knitting needles.

Mark++++++1

 

[Keith]

Not me Keith.

Having said that, why would that deny me the right to discuss the concept of abortion :huh:

I don't doubt that in most cases it is a harrowing experience, but not having gone through the process doesn't mean that I am unqualified to talk about (and possibly learn about) it.

Not my point Graham - have at it by all means - it would, however, be a more powerful social comment from someone that has been involved in the process of abortion (as I have).

Unfortunately Graham once again it seems that you are not going to learn anything here except how to march to the omnipresent Yankee dirge...

"LEFT RIGHT LEFT RIGHT LEFT RIGHT LEFT RIGHT LEFT RIGHT LEFT RIGHT" ad infinitum ad nauseum.

I doubt whether anyone except Nick and me are actually reading your posts so I will not share my experiences which, after 42 years, are not particularly painful but I believe enlightening .

What an absolute (baby) shower! (apologies to Terry Thomas)

Did the subtleties and wisdoms of respectful debate not leave these shores I wonder?

And Mark. Yes yes and yes again mate.

 

[Bob Fechter]

Yes, you've screamed and ranted and stated far more than an opinion. You have conclusively stated that "liberals have offed 50 million+ of their children" thereby committing genocide. Sorry, but you get a big fuck you for saying something like that.

No ultrasound is "denied" to "these women." If they want one they can have one. In fact it is the opposite, people like you are trying to FORCE women to have ultrasounds and watch the entire process.

Get your facts straight.

The Left will go through any length to save a mass murderer from death row. After the lengthy, expensive trial ends, the years and years of appeals fail, the Left Wing machine will try to save that miserable life to the moment he dies.

And yet, the Pro Life establishment fights ultrasound as, really, the only defense these children have to commute their death sentence.

And, on a personal note, the same and more to you Jeff!

 

[Nick]

There is some evidence (from this forum at least) to suggest that brain activity may not even be present in middle age... :blank:

Keith,

In my opinion (which is the most valid one I know) that is the most sensible post on this thread I have seen, and I include my posts in the comparison.

What I would say, is that it will always likely happen, legal or otherwise. Better in the open, and done properly, rather than being forced back into the dark ages of abortions carried out in kitchens by anyone with a knife and a pair of knitting needles.

Mark,

Absolutely.

 

[Graham]

Unfortunately Graham once again it seems that you are not going to learn anything here except how to march to the omnipresent Yankee dirge...

"LEFT RIGHT LEFT RIGHT LEFT RIGHT LEFT RIGHT LEFT RIGHT LEFT RIGHT" ad infinitum ad nauseum.

I doubt whether anyone except Nick and me are actually reading your posts so I will not share my experiences which, after 42 years, are not particularly painful but I believe enlightening .

In the short time that I have known you, I believe you to be more correct than ever before. I would share your experiences of this issue, as would Nick, through a PM, or even through the fug of a pint in a pub one day...

As to the LEFT RIGHT LEFT RIGHT, I fear that you are spot on. My life is too busy in many ways to spend the time posting here, and yet I do, because I hold to the principles of good debate...

Unfortunately, as I posted a week or so back, our cousins are now so polarised that they can't see the wood for the trees. Entrenchment and rigidity seem to be the permanent order of the day, and that's a pretty unenlightened place to be...

Sad really....

 

[Jeff Young]

Sad but true. I don't know what happened to us. We don't even have any "news" on TV or radio or the internet anymore. It's all "which side is this source on." No more Walter Cronkite, or Roger Mudd, or David Brinkley or John Chancellor.

So we actually elect a pretty centrist President (cue the Al's and Domtoni's and Veep's of the world screaming socialist!) and everybody, left and right hates him for being centrist.

Bad times in America.

Unfortunately, as I posted a week or so back, our cousins are now so polarised that they can't see the wood for the trees. Entrenchment and rigidity seem to be the permanent order of the day, and that's a pretty unenlightened place to be...

Sad really....

 

[Jim Craik]

Guys,

Yes this is left, right, left........

But that said, I too love a good debate, and even more than that I deplore hypocracy.

Am I the only one who finds it ODD that the folks who want to outlaw abortion, the folks who want to limit sex education, limit birth control and outlaw Planned Parenthood.

Are the very ones to turn their back on these childeren once they are born!

How does someone develop a though process like that?

 

[Pete McCluskey.]

I can imagine lots of reasons why abortion would appear to be the best option for a woman. I can also see why it is wrong. Perhaps the most difficult of all the questions mankind has to ask.

I have no experience first, second or third hand, only those effected by the issue really have valid right to argue either way IMO

What I would say, is that it will always likely happen, legal or otherwise. Better in the open, and done properly, rather than being forced back into the dark ages of abortions carried out in kitchens by anyone with a knife and a pair of knitting needles.

Mark +10000.