Democrats what is wrong with you?
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Ron Earp
Admin
I think both sides have of walked out in such situations in the past. Shame on all of them.
Filibusters, while ridiculous, seem to be an accepted part of the process - accepted from both sides. If the Democrats want to filibuster, and that is part of WI's process, let them have at it. Running away isn't part of anyone's process.
Pete McCluskey.
Lifetime Supporter
Fwiw, I agree with Ron, whatever your political leanings note voting is letting down the people who put you there to represent them.
Jim Craik
Lifetime Supporter
Ron and Pete,
You both think is is ok to balance the budget on the backs of teachers and kids.
You have not answered my main questions, why just teachers, why not the Police, Fire fighters highway patrol and the legislature? I'm fairly sure they all make more and have better pensions than the teachers.
Pete, Moronity was an error but it really appears to cover these actions.
You both think is is ok to balance the budget on the backs of teachers and kids.
You have not answered my main questions, why just teachers, why not the Police, Fire fighters highway patrol and the legislature? I'm fairly sure they all make more and have better pensions than the teachers.
Pete, Moronity was an error but it really appears to cover these actions.
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Ron Earp
Admin
I'm not commenting on the legislation that is to be passed or passing judgment on it. I do not know enough about the current situation and what is proposed to do so.
I don't know the answers to any of these questions. I imagine you'd have to live there and be highly involved in the situation to know one from the other, like voters, who elected the majority they elected.
I'm just commenting that when things don't go your way you don't take your toys and go home.
- Are the firefighters underpaid?
- Are the police officers underpaid?
- Are the highway patrol officers underpaid?
- Do the above three have the same benefits as teachers?
- Are teachers and "service protectors" valued the same to the WI population?
- Are the teachers overpaid now?
- Do the teachers have advantages not offered to other State employees?
- Do the teacher unions have too much clout?
- Is there too much money going to teacher benefits?
I don't know the answers to any of these questions. I imagine you'd have to live there and be highly involved in the situation to know one from the other, like voters, who elected the majority they elected.
I'm just commenting that when things don't go your way you don't take your toys and go home.
Well, that would be all well and good if it weren't such a discriminative law...it only applies to SOME teachers from Texas and SOME teachers from Georgia. In my case, my years of "substantial income/contributions" in the S/S system were in the state of Kansas, and I must admit that when I moved to Texas and found out I would not be contributing to the S/S system, I was not disappointed b/c I firmly believed that when I came of age to collect S/S there would be very little, if any, left. It never dawned on me that the federal government would believe that depriving SO FEW poorly paid teachers of the federal benefits they had earned, thereby depriving them of the huge majority of their entitlement, would solve the problems facing S/S. Still doesn't make any sense to me, but it is what it is. During the reign of Tom Delay as Speaker of the House, there were over 350 representatives who co-authored a bill to repeal the WEP. Tom Delay used his position as SOTH to keep the bill from ever coming out of committee....you would have thought that the $$ to pay those teachers who had earned the right to participate in the program into which they were forced was going to come from his own pockets.
Want to hear something better? Employees of the various railroads in the U.S.A. do not contribute to S/S, either, but they are not subject to the WEP provisions. Why? Well, it seems that there was a time the federal government needed to borrow some money (that was back before the day when they just printed more) and the railroad retirement fund was willing to loan the government the money it wanted, but with a price that was not "interest", they insisted that their employees never be part of any effort to deprive any U.S. citizen of their S/S entitlement. Apparently the government has never forgotten that promise (not that the railroads would ever let them forget).
Anyway, it's refreshing to see that the current administration in WI feels that the best way to balance their budget is on the backs of those who can least afford it, the hourly employees who must rely on the political "clout" of the unions to protect them. IMHO, the unions don't have enough clout, not too much.
YOMV, though :idea:.
At one point in WI, I would have to say "yes". I worked with some teachers who had left WI for TX, and one of them was a union member in Kenosha, WI the year that the teachers and board could not arrive at agreement. There was no school that year. My "friend" was one of the union's negotiators for the local organization, and in the heat of the discussions he called the president of the school board a "stupid corksuker" right across the bargaining table. The next year that there was school he found himself unexplainedly transfered to the most undesirable campus in the city. Imagine that???
Looks as if there was TOO MUCH clout on both sides....but, then IMHO two wrongs don't make a right.
Cheers from Doug!!
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Just to comment on the actual action the WI Dems are taking - yes, both sides have used this tactic in the past.
In 1994, the Republicans of the CA Assembly refused to show up for floor sessions in an attempt to prevent the Dems from electing Willie Brown speaker.
And, interestingly, Abraham Lincoln jumped out of the Illinois state building in an attempt to prevent the Dems from passing a bill back in 1839.
And, of course, the 2003 Texas Dems ...
Ian
In 1994, the Republicans of the CA Assembly refused to show up for floor sessions in an attempt to prevent the Dems from electing Willie Brown speaker.
And, interestingly, Abraham Lincoln jumped out of the Illinois state building in an attempt to prevent the Dems from passing a bill back in 1839.
And, of course, the 2003 Texas Dems ...
Ian
This is what unions and unfunded liabilities are doing to the US.
Mish's Global Economic Trend Analysis: Interactive Map of Public Pension Plans; How Badly Underfunded are the Plans in Your State?
Mish's Global Economic Trend Analysis: Interactive Map of Public Pension Plans; How Badly Underfunded are the Plans in Your State?
And they are underfunded because they bought packaged derivatives?
Pat
Supporter
Could it be the Union Pensions are so underfunded because:
•The AFL-CIO, whose president Richard Trumka is orchestrating much of the protests in Madison this week, donated $1.2 million to Democrats in 2008 and $900,000 in 2010.
•The American Federation of State, County and Municipal employees donated $2.6 million to the Democrats in 2008 and another $2.6 million in 2010.
•The National Education Association donated $2.3 million to Democrats in 2008 and $2.2 million in 2010.
•The Teamsters union donated $2.4 million to Democrats in 2008 and $2.3 million in 2010.
•The SEIU donated $2.6 million to Democrats in 2008 and $1.7 million in 2010.
•The Carpenters and Joiners union donated $2 million to Democrats in 2008 and $2.1 million 2010.
•The Laborers union donated $2.6 million to Democrats in 2008 and $2.2 million in 2010.
•The International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers donated $3.8 million to Democrats in 2008 and $3.2 million in 2010.
•The American Federation of Teachers donated $2.8 million to Democrats in 2008 and $2.7 million in 2010.
•The Machinists and Aerospace union donated $2.5 million to Democrats in 2008 and $2.1 million in 2010.
•The Communication Workers of America, which includes employees from several television and radio stations and other publishing platforms, donated $2.2 million to Democrats in 2008 and $2.1 million in 2010.
•The United Autoworkers union (UAW) donated $2.1 million to Democrats in 2008 and $1.5 million in 2010.
•The United Food and Commercial Workers union (UFCW) donated $2.1 million to Democrats in 2008 and $1.9 million in 2010.
Methinks you may have missed Veek's point, Jim.
Obviously, this is a nefarious act in which any conservative, much less a Republican, would never engage.
Those Democrats must be SO stupid to believe that their donations could possibly make ANY difference in the outcome, after all, the other parties seem to have the liberals on the run (or, so they think :idea: ).
Cheers from Doug!!
Jim Craik
Lifetime Supporter
Code:
If the Republican majority in Wisconsin had cut their own legislature pay and the pay/benefits for all state employees, this would not have happened.
If they were fair, I and most folks would have supported them. But they chose to cut the pay and bust the union of the teachers.
There are several unions in Wisconsin that have much higher pay and much higher benefit packages. The police union, the Fire Fighter union and the Highway Patrol.
Why do you think the Republicans did not act fairly and bust these unions, could it be because they receive large donation from these unions? Veek do these unions have lots of excess Wisconsin cash!
Gee Veek, why do you not list the Union donations to Republicans?
Could it be that you think we are so gullible that we would believe your misleading post?
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Jim, to further your point, I've heard that Wisconsin was on the path to actually having a surplus this year until their newly elected governor gave huge tax cuts to multinational corporations.
To Veek, Those contributions were completely necessary. As we can see the newly elected Republican delegates are hell bent on busting those unions, even when the members are willing to concede the necessary money cover the new deficit. Jim also brings up a good point as to why you have neglected to list up union contributions to other parties besides the Democrats.
This whole affair seems to be a power grab by the new Republican governor. He doesn't want to balance the budget, or else he would not have given the tax cuts he did earlier. He wants to take power away from the workers and common people. If this bill goes through there will be dire consequences for the state of Wisconsin, and perhaps the rest of the nation. I applaud the Democrats who have walked out. They are serving their constituency to their best ability. When the other side comes to the negotiating table, I am certain the missing representatives will return to complete the legislative process.
To Veek, Those contributions were completely necessary. As we can see the newly elected Republican delegates are hell bent on busting those unions, even when the members are willing to concede the necessary money cover the new deficit. Jim also brings up a good point as to why you have neglected to list up union contributions to other parties besides the Democrats.
This whole affair seems to be a power grab by the new Republican governor. He doesn't want to balance the budget, or else he would not have given the tax cuts he did earlier. He wants to take power away from the workers and common people. If this bill goes through there will be dire consequences for the state of Wisconsin, and perhaps the rest of the nation. I applaud the Democrats who have walked out. They are serving their constituency to their best ability. When the other side comes to the negotiating table, I am certain the missing representatives will return to complete the legislative process.
Pat
Supporter
Your point is certainly understandable. Not only do the unions need to pay the Democrats at the expense of their pensioners, there are other expenses to pay as well:
On June 15, federal authorities began arresting 120 defendants across the country in a far-reaching securities racket involving three unions and five La Cosa Nostra families: Bananno, Colombo, Gambino, Genovese and Luchese. The suit filed in U.S. Dist. Court in Manhattan included charges of racketeering, conspiracy, wire fraud, securities fraud, mail fraud, pension fund fraud, bribery, illegal kickbacks, money laundering, witness tampering, extortion, physical intimidation and the solicitation of murder. A year-long probe, Operation Uptick, uncovered the racket.
It included defrauding three N.Y.-based union pension funds: the Detectives' Endowment Ass'n (DEA), which serves NYPD detectives, Production Workers Local 400 and Int'l Union of Operating Engineers Local 137. Defendants allegedly used corrupt securities professionals to manage union pension funds and craft investments in a way that allowed for a secret diversion of money as kickbacks.
Defendants Stephen E. Gardell, who recently retired as a NYPD detective and is treasurer of DEA, allegedly conspired with a mob-controlled investment firm to divert money from the union -- a scam that was reportedly thwarted by the arrests. The indictment charged that he "corruptly agreed to defraud the DEA union pension plan for the benefit of the enterprise and for personal profit." The indictment also charge that he "corruptly leaked confidential information" concerning federal investigations of the mob to alleged mob associates James Labate (Gambino) and Salvatore Piazza (Bonanno), from 1997 to 2000. Gardell also allegedly used his position to help to drop assault charges against alleged Colombo associate Michael Grecco. Gardell also allegedly obtained pistol-carry permits and NYPD parking permits for Labate and Piazza.
Gardell allegedly received $8,000 from the mob to build a swimming pool at his Staten Island home, as well as free or reduced-rate visits to Atlantic City and Las Vegas casinos and a fur coat. He was released on $500,000 bail. His attorney, Joseph Tacopina, acknowledged that his client knew Piazza and Labate but denied wrongdoing.
On the day of Gardell's indictment, he was granted a tax-free, disability pension. He retired June 1 and his pension was approved June 14. The pension gives him three-quarters of his salary, tax-free, for the rest of his life, regardless of the outcome of his indictment. A high-ranking NYPD official said, "The department was unaware of any investigation or indictment when he retired." Gardell was also reportedly reelected DEA's treasurer last month.
The indictment also charges that Production Workers Local 400 pension fund treasurer and alleged Colombo crime family associate, Frank "Frankie" A. Persico, was integral to the attempted union scam. Persico, also a registered stockbroker, also allegedly ran a group of stock brokers who were bribed to "put away" stocks: to get clients to buy and hold instead of selling in order to inflate the price of mob-control stocks. Brokers who reneged or who refused to promote specific stocks at Persico's instructions were threatened, and some suffered violence at the hands of associates of the enterprise, according to the indictment.
Also indicted was William M. Stephens, chief investment officer of Husic Capital Mgmt., a S.F.-based investment adviser. Reportedly, he deliberately set up the investments of union funds to appear legitimate to avoid detection. He allegedly agreed to manage up to $300 million in union pension funds, knowing that a portion would be invested in corrupt deals to fund kickbacks. These unions' identities were not released. According to prosecutors, $2 million of every $10 million invested was to be kicked back. Additionally, Chicago hedge fund manger, Glenn B. Laken of the TradeVentureFund, was another defendant alleged to be involved in a deal designed to defraud union pension funds. Laken was charged with making illegal kickbacks to union bosses. [Chi. Trib., Daily News, N.Y. Times]
The Sheet Metal workers' union pension plan is underfunded and so risks the future pensions promised to its members. Many other union pension plans are in similar straits. The histories of several union pension funds demonstrate why they are in poor financial condition:
• In 2008 the significant liabilities of the Sheet Metal workers pension plan required it to negotiate combinations of increased contributions and decreased benefits.
• The Teamsters implemented only modest reforms of their pension plans, too late to forestall automatic penalties.
• The Plumbers and Pipefitters Union lost millions to former trustees, who made investments favoring family members that yielded low returns.
• A bookkeeper of the Laborers' pension fund embezzled hundreds of thousands of dollars in contributions.
The Labor Unions are doing to workers what Enron did to investors. And they're hoping the Democrats will bail them out.
On June 15, federal authorities began arresting 120 defendants across the country in a far-reaching securities racket involving three unions and five La Cosa Nostra families: Bananno, Colombo, Gambino, Genovese and Luchese. The suit filed in U.S. Dist. Court in Manhattan included charges of racketeering, conspiracy, wire fraud, securities fraud, mail fraud, pension fund fraud, bribery, illegal kickbacks, money laundering, witness tampering, extortion, physical intimidation and the solicitation of murder. A year-long probe, Operation Uptick, uncovered the racket.
It included defrauding three N.Y.-based union pension funds: the Detectives' Endowment Ass'n (DEA), which serves NYPD detectives, Production Workers Local 400 and Int'l Union of Operating Engineers Local 137. Defendants allegedly used corrupt securities professionals to manage union pension funds and craft investments in a way that allowed for a secret diversion of money as kickbacks.
Defendants Stephen E. Gardell, who recently retired as a NYPD detective and is treasurer of DEA, allegedly conspired with a mob-controlled investment firm to divert money from the union -- a scam that was reportedly thwarted by the arrests. The indictment charged that he "corruptly agreed to defraud the DEA union pension plan for the benefit of the enterprise and for personal profit." The indictment also charge that he "corruptly leaked confidential information" concerning federal investigations of the mob to alleged mob associates James Labate (Gambino) and Salvatore Piazza (Bonanno), from 1997 to 2000. Gardell also allegedly used his position to help to drop assault charges against alleged Colombo associate Michael Grecco. Gardell also allegedly obtained pistol-carry permits and NYPD parking permits for Labate and Piazza.
Gardell allegedly received $8,000 from the mob to build a swimming pool at his Staten Island home, as well as free or reduced-rate visits to Atlantic City and Las Vegas casinos and a fur coat. He was released on $500,000 bail. His attorney, Joseph Tacopina, acknowledged that his client knew Piazza and Labate but denied wrongdoing.
On the day of Gardell's indictment, he was granted a tax-free, disability pension. He retired June 1 and his pension was approved June 14. The pension gives him three-quarters of his salary, tax-free, for the rest of his life, regardless of the outcome of his indictment. A high-ranking NYPD official said, "The department was unaware of any investigation or indictment when he retired." Gardell was also reportedly reelected DEA's treasurer last month.
The indictment also charges that Production Workers Local 400 pension fund treasurer and alleged Colombo crime family associate, Frank "Frankie" A. Persico, was integral to the attempted union scam. Persico, also a registered stockbroker, also allegedly ran a group of stock brokers who were bribed to "put away" stocks: to get clients to buy and hold instead of selling in order to inflate the price of mob-control stocks. Brokers who reneged or who refused to promote specific stocks at Persico's instructions were threatened, and some suffered violence at the hands of associates of the enterprise, according to the indictment.
Also indicted was William M. Stephens, chief investment officer of Husic Capital Mgmt., a S.F.-based investment adviser. Reportedly, he deliberately set up the investments of union funds to appear legitimate to avoid detection. He allegedly agreed to manage up to $300 million in union pension funds, knowing that a portion would be invested in corrupt deals to fund kickbacks. These unions' identities were not released. According to prosecutors, $2 million of every $10 million invested was to be kicked back. Additionally, Chicago hedge fund manger, Glenn B. Laken of the TradeVentureFund, was another defendant alleged to be involved in a deal designed to defraud union pension funds. Laken was charged with making illegal kickbacks to union bosses. [Chi. Trib., Daily News, N.Y. Times]
The Sheet Metal workers' union pension plan is underfunded and so risks the future pensions promised to its members. Many other union pension plans are in similar straits. The histories of several union pension funds demonstrate why they are in poor financial condition:
• In 2008 the significant liabilities of the Sheet Metal workers pension plan required it to negotiate combinations of increased contributions and decreased benefits.
• The Teamsters implemented only modest reforms of their pension plans, too late to forestall automatic penalties.
• The Plumbers and Pipefitters Union lost millions to former trustees, who made investments favoring family members that yielded low returns.
• A bookkeeper of the Laborers' pension fund embezzled hundreds of thousands of dollars in contributions.
The Labor Unions are doing to workers what Enron did to investors. And they're hoping the Democrats will bail them out.
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Jim Craik
Lifetime Supporter
Stinchy,
That my friend was a very well though out, well researched and very well written post!
You make a great addition to our site.
Because you are fairly new, you may not have noted how the right leaning folks here react to a well written post.
THEY CHANGE THE SUBJECT!....... (the Gambino family, really?)
Gee Veek, a thought we were talking about Wisconsin.
That my friend was a very well though out, well researched and very well written post!
You make a great addition to our site.
Because you are fairly new, you may not have noted how the right leaning folks here react to a well written post.
THEY CHANGE THE SUBJECT!....... (the Gambino family, really?)
Gee Veek, a thought we were talking about Wisconsin.
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Jim Craik
Lifetime Supporter
So they give tax cuts to muli-national corporations, and then try and make up this lost tax $ by taking it from the teachers pension plan.
Take from the poor and give it to the rich, that sounds like wealth redistribution.
Damian, Al, Ron, Pete, TomP and Veek, I know you are against wealth redistribution, will you also condemn this!
Take from the poor and give it to the rich, that sounds like wealth redistribution.
Damian, Al, Ron, Pete, TomP and Veek, I know you are against wealth redistribution, will you also condemn this!
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Jeff Young
GT40s Supporter
Now, there is a difference between organizing opposition to the bill -- all part of the political process -- and endorsing the walkout (a very wrong headed tactic in my view).
If the President is just saying he opposes the bill, and as the leader of his party organizing demonstrations and opposition to it, then fine. That's politics. Make your arguments, show public support for your position and have a vote.
If the President is actively endorsing the walkout, then, not fine. That is just obstructionism.
I don't know if he is doing the latter. If so, that would be wrong.
On the merits of this, there is no federal constitutional right to colletively bargain, and I think the Wisconsin constitution is silent on it as well. So, if the legislature chooses to do this, then that is the will of the people.
I personally don't think unions are effective any more, and also think they can be destructive, but at the same time, I don't see any reason to treat government employees differently from private. In the context of employment matters, they are functionally the same and in my view should have the same rights.
If the President is just saying he opposes the bill, and as the leader of his party organizing demonstrations and opposition to it, then fine. That's politics. Make your arguments, show public support for your position and have a vote.
If the President is actively endorsing the walkout, then, not fine. That is just obstructionism.
I don't know if he is doing the latter. If so, that would be wrong.
On the merits of this, there is no federal constitutional right to colletively bargain, and I think the Wisconsin constitution is silent on it as well. So, if the legislature chooses to do this, then that is the will of the people.
I personally don't think unions are effective any more, and also think they can be destructive, but at the same time, I don't see any reason to treat government employees differently from private. In the context of employment matters, they are functionally the same and in my view should have the same rights.
Ron Earp
Admin
I don't think he's gone so far as to support the walkouts, despite what Foxnews and other conservative mouthpieces have said. He's openly criticized the Rep governor, but a president criticizing a governor is hardly new. Apparently he's having a tough time walking the line between cutting the budget and making sure his relationship with the unions is intact for that 2012 re-election campaign.
According to several sources the governor is doing exactly what he said he'd do when running for office so there should be no surprises there. He was elected by popular vote so someone in Wisconsin would like less union involvement at the government level.
I'm hardly qualified to comment on the WI union and state employee woes. My comments are on the walkout only which is a shameful tactic given there are accepted means of debating the topic available to the legislators.
Pat
Supporter
The Republicans have been in control of the state house in Wisconsin and the U.S. House for less than two months and you blame them for the problem?
Leading Union Political Campaign Contributors
1990-2010
---------------------------------------------------------Democrats Vs Republican
American Fed. of State, County, & Municipal Employees----$40,281,900 vs $547,700
Intel Brotherhood of Electrical Workers---------------------$29,705,600 vs $679,000
National Education Association--------------------------$27,679,300 vs $2,005,200
Service Employees International Union----------------------$26,368,470 vs $98,700
Communication Workers of America------------------------$26,305,500 vs $125,300
Service Employees International Union-------------------$26,252,000 vs $1,086,200
Laborers Union-----------------------------------------$25,734,000 vs $2,138,000
American Federation of Teachers-------------------------$25,682,800 vs $200,000
United Auto Workers--------------------------------------$25,082,200 vs $82,700
Teamsters Union---------------------------------------$24,926,400 vs $1,822,000
Carpenters and Joiners Union--------------------------- $24,094,100 vs $2,658,000
Machinists & Aerospace Workers Union--------------------$23,875,600 vs $226,300
United Food and Commercial Workers Union----------------$23,182,000 vs $334,200
AFL-CIO-------------------------------------------------$17,124,300 vs $713,500
Sheet Metal Workers Union-------------------------------$16,347,200 vs $342,800
Plumbers & Pipefitters Union------------------------------$14,790,000 vs $818,500
Operating Engineers Union-----------------------------$13,840,000 vs $2,309,500
Airline Pilots Association-------------------------------$12,806,600 vs $2,398,300
International Association of Firefighters----------------$12,421,700 vs $2,685,400
United Transportation Workers------------------------$11,807,000 vs $1,459,300
Ironworkers Union--------------------------------------$11,638,900 vs $936,000
American Postal Workers Union-------------------------$11,633,100 vs $544,300
Nat'l Active & Retired Fed. Employees Association--------$8,135,400 vs $2,294,600
Seafarers International Union---------------------------$6,726,800 vs $1,281,300
Overall, since 1990, labor unions have contributed over $667 million in election campaigns in the United States, of which $614 million or 92 percent went to support Democratic candidates. In 2008, unions spent $74.5 million in campaign contributions, with $68.3 million going to the Democratic Party. Already, unions have contributed $6.5 million to the 2010 elections, and $6 million has gone to Democrats.
This is no doubt related to $38 million dollars that the American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees Union has contributed to Democratic Party campaigns since 1990, with nearly $2.6 million being given during the 2008 election. Public sector unions as a whole have given around $160 million to Democratic candidates between 1990 and 2008, with donations of $6 million in 2008.
But it is also the case that the United Auto Workers union has donated almost $25 million to Democratic Party candidates since 1990, contributing $2 million of that total in the 2008 election cycle.
The National Education Association and the American Federation of Teachers which since 1990 have contributed more than $50 million to support Democratic candidates running for office. Both unions have been strong supporters of increased federal aid to public schools and have strongly opposed school voucher programs.
I'd invite anyone interested to independently research this themselves and come to their own beliefs.
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