Yep....
The poisoned dwarf would rather grab money from wannabee circuits than use the old iconic circuits around the world....
:veryangry::veryangry::veryangry:
F1 2010
- Thread starter Freewheel
- Start date
Yep....
The poisoned dwarf would rather grab money from wannabee circuits than use the old iconic circuits around the world....
:veryangry::veryangry::veryangry:
Ian Anderson
Lifetime Supporter
And the sham hearing about Ferrari team orders got the expected result - no penalty
Ian
Ian
Indeed. I would just like to make a point AGAINST team orders before this event passes into F1 twisted history.
Team orders are fine when it is just a team event, but F1 is not. F1 is also the World Drivers Championship and the individual driver results are what counts not only for the championship but for the drivers future employment prospects to say nothing of potential personal sponsorship.
There are many examples when drivers have been ordered to move over, hold station or 'crash' :laugh: when it clearly benefits the team but not the driver. Remember Ford's staged finish at Le Mans? What a debacle.
Teams earn big money out of constructor points so why would they favour one driver over another anyway? The answer lies in the true content of drivers' contracts which the public are not party to and nor are the other drivers.
To me, it is a deceitful way to continue because it is mainly the driver that the paying public support not necessarily the team (with the obvious exception of Ferrago the Prancing Pinto).
In order not to continue to deceive the public, I propose that drivers are clearly described as No1 and No2 in their teams and I also propose that teams can enter just 1 chassis if they so wish.
Sort that one out.
Team orders are fine when it is just a team event, but F1 is not. F1 is also the World Drivers Championship and the individual driver results are what counts not only for the championship but for the drivers future employment prospects to say nothing of potential personal sponsorship.
There are many examples when drivers have been ordered to move over, hold station or 'crash' :laugh: when it clearly benefits the team but not the driver. Remember Ford's staged finish at Le Mans? What a debacle.
Teams earn big money out of constructor points so why would they favour one driver over another anyway? The answer lies in the true content of drivers' contracts which the public are not party to and nor are the other drivers.
To me, it is a deceitful way to continue because it is mainly the driver that the paying public support not necessarily the team (with the obvious exception of Ferrago the Prancing Pinto).
In order not to continue to deceive the public, I propose that drivers are clearly described as No1 and No2 in their teams and I also propose that teams can enter just 1 chassis if they so wish.
Sort that one out.
Indeed. I would just like to make a point AGAINST team orders before this event passes into F1 twisted history.
Team orders are fine when it is just a team event, but F1 is not. F1 is also the World Drivers Championship and the individual driver results are what counts not only for the championship but for the drivers future employment prospects to say nothing of potential personal sponsorship.
There are many examples when drivers have been ordered to move over, hold station or 'crash' :laugh: when it clearly benefits the team but not the driver. Remember Ford's staged finish at Le Mans? What a debacle.
Teams earn big money out of constructor points so why would they favour one driver over another anyway? The answer lies in the true content of drivers' contracts which the public are not party to and nor are the other drivers.
To me, it is a deceitful way to continue because it is mainly the driver that the paying public support not necessarily the team (with the obvious exception of Ferrago the Prancing Pinto).
In order not to continue to deceive the public, I propose that drivers are clearly described as No1 and No2 in their teams and I also propose that teams can enter just 1 chassis if they so wish.
Sort that one out.
Nowt to sort out.... I think you have pretty much nailed it Keith.
Team orders (overt, or not) are going to be a part of F1 any time a team has more than one car/driver on the track. It's human (competitive) nature to use all the tools in the tool bag to win, and if that means directing one driver to do something that's in the team's best interest (but probably not the driver's interest) well, guess what, the team manager is going to call for it. No amount of edicts against team orders or, alternatively, enhanced disclosure, will stop that, or even meaningfully limit it.
It's the same in all team racing sports - sailing, bicycling, etc. There's always a team member out on the "playing field" (whatever that may be - water, road, court) who is less strong than his/her team members and thus will have less leverage so that "taking one for the team" is expected and, indeed, an absolute condition of continued team membership (employment). Pretending that some formal rule, or overt disclosure of who is #1 and who is #2, will change that is just silly. Just my (realistic) $.02.
It's the same in all team racing sports - sailing, bicycling, etc. There's always a team member out on the "playing field" (whatever that may be - water, road, court) who is less strong than his/her team members and thus will have less leverage so that "taking one for the team" is expected and, indeed, an absolute condition of continued team membership (employment). Pretending that some formal rule, or overt disclosure of who is #1 and who is #2, will change that is just silly. Just my (realistic) $.02.
With the exception of cycle racing where the team exists to promote just one of their number to the winners circle and part of the core strategy of the sport, no other "team `sport" comes even close to replicating the conditions in F1.
Sailing? Sorry, don't get that analogy at all and nothing is similar.
F1 only became a "team" sport as you call it when Ecclestone shifted the goalposts and insisted that entrants had to run 2 cars, and that they should be made in-house. No more customer cars such as Lola, March, Surtees, McLaren etc. It was done for purely financial reasons -not sport.
There is no other "team" sport (with the exception of cycle racing ) in which an individual wins a prestigious world crown helped by his team mates and thus the F1 "system" has been bastardized to make more money at the expense of individual achievement.
And to facilitate this bastard system they employ young inexperienced kids with stars in their eyes that will "do what they're told" to enable the favoured driver to win the World Crown. Basically - it's a fix and the fans are cheated. Formation racing and 'jam cars' is an American concept but those tactics do not represent the pinnacle of open wheel racing.
Occasionally the cream will rise to the top whatever anybody tries to do to "fix" the results, to wit: Hamilton & Alonso. Now THAT was a great year.
To say I am being silly and unrealistic in one sweeping sentence Cliff is a bit unfair - I ask for TRANSPARENCY in F1, a condition I'm quite sure that most other F1 fans would agree with 100%.
Pete McCluskey.
Lifetime Supporter
Hows this for fence sitting? I agree with both of you.:stunned: Cliff is correct when he says Team orders will always be part of F1 while two cars are part of a team. I agree with Keith when he says we should know who is the nominated number 1 driver before the first race of the season.
I don't get the sailing comment either?
I don't get the sailing comment either?
An even handed Pete! That calls for a slab (or 2) :laugh:
Right, here's the deal. Your young rookie is out front and leading and get's told to move over for his team mate. Why? Team will get max points whoever of the two wins and the points drop for the 2nd place man is not that significant (ironically it has become MORE significant since the new points system).
The answer lies in the drivers contract. People like Alonso will have it written into his contract that he has to come out ahead of his team mate.
Schumacher probably has the same but even though Rosberg has parked up and had a cup of tea waiting for him, he just can't seem to get the job done.
No one (least of all me) has suggested that team orders haven't become part and parcel of this and will always be the same but please don't treat the fans like jerks else you will end up with the cars parading around an empty stadium.
Right, here's the deal. Your young rookie is out front and leading and get's told to move over for his team mate. Why? Team will get max points whoever of the two wins and the points drop for the 2nd place man is not that significant (ironically it has become MORE significant since the new points system).
The answer lies in the drivers contract. People like Alonso will have it written into his contract that he has to come out ahead of his team mate.
Schumacher probably has the same but even though Rosberg has parked up and had a cup of tea waiting for him, he just can't seem to get the job done.
No one (least of all me) has suggested that team orders haven't become part and parcel of this and will always be the same but please don't treat the fans like jerks else you will end up with the cars parading around an empty stadium.
This issue of nominating a first and second driver is indeed about transparency. I agree that it is virtually impossible to remove team orders from the sport, as there are hundreds of ways that they can be set in motion for one driver to pass his teammate on track seemingly legally.
The problem with Fartrari is the arrogance with which they flaunted the rules, and in this case, the punishment did not fit the crime.
They were punished for what they did, but not for the crime of bringing the sport into disrepute, which they surely did through their arrogant actions. This SHOULD have held a much higher tarriff...
Transparency is indeed key to the problem. As you say Keith, If I KNOW that driver B is the number 2 driver, then I also know that at some stage he will aid his more senior teammate as and when required. This actually brings a higher level of tactics into play during a race, which, if transparency were to prevail, could actually enhance races.
Personally though I'm old fashioned, and the Hamilton v. Alonso year was great, as was the Button v. Barichello year (although less so). I like to see 26 guys racing full tilt where possible, and anything less will slowly erode the kudos of the formula, and the bums on seats around the globe.
Graham.
The problem with Fartrari is the arrogance with which they flaunted the rules, and in this case, the punishment did not fit the crime.
They were punished for what they did, but not for the crime of bringing the sport into disrepute, which they surely did through their arrogant actions. This SHOULD have held a much higher tarriff...
Transparency is indeed key to the problem. As you say Keith, If I KNOW that driver B is the number 2 driver, then I also know that at some stage he will aid his more senior teammate as and when required. This actually brings a higher level of tactics into play during a race, which, if transparency were to prevail, could actually enhance races.
Personally though I'm old fashioned, and the Hamilton v. Alonso year was great, as was the Button v. Barichello year (although less so). I like to see 26 guys racing full tilt where possible, and anything less will slowly erode the kudos of the formula, and the bums on seats around the globe.
Graham.
Americas Cup match racing? Not even close.
Trials: Boat/syndicate/club wins. Race: Country wins. Skippers & crews totally interchangeable at will at any point of the competition.
At no time is any individual deemed to be a champion over and above the results that the boat/syndicate/club/country achieves.
Trials: Boat/syndicate/club wins. Race: Country wins. Skippers & crews totally interchangeable at will at any point of the competition.
At no time is any individual deemed to be a champion over and above the results that the boat/syndicate/club/country achieves.
Well Doc I suppose Denis is the Official World Champion Sailing Helmsman then is he? Or perhaps just the winning skipper on his day?
Still don't get the analogy with sailing.
Anyway...
The row rumbles on. The Dwarf says he is going to look into the matter (be afraid), Frank Williams says he's in favour of Team Orders (no surprise there - he has never cared too much for his drivers) and Jenson Button says "I will walk away from F1 if they bring in team orders". In the meantime, Webber has thrown down the gauntlet and says "well, it looks as if I'm the No. 1 driver in the team now" I suppose meaning that he expects the illegal team orders to favour him now, which they can't because they're banned.
The makings of a good race tomorrow but God forbid if Massa or Vettel dare to overtake their team mates!!!
Still don't get the analogy with sailing.
Anyway...
The row rumbles on. The Dwarf says he is going to look into the matter (be afraid), Frank Williams says he's in favour of Team Orders (no surprise there - he has never cared too much for his drivers) and Jenson Button says "I will walk away from F1 if they bring in team orders". In the meantime, Webber has thrown down the gauntlet and says "well, it looks as if I'm the No. 1 driver in the team now" I suppose meaning that he expects the illegal team orders to favour him now, which they can't because they're banned.
The makings of a good race tomorrow but God forbid if Massa or Vettel dare to overtake their team mates!!!
David Morton
Lifetime Supporter
Keith ,
You best start spreading your bet or 'shorting' with the fund for your boat.......
Only joking....
You best start spreading your bet or 'shorting' with the fund for your boat.......
Only joking....
You said that far too quickly mate.
Don't worry, my money is safe as houses. Hamilton is just sandbagging. He'll breeze past Webber before the first chicane forcing Webber to take the escape road where he'll have to wait until the last Hispania has passed.
Maybe...
Huh?
I'm talking about dingy racing. Many, if not most, dingy racing venues provide for team racing. In other words, a dingy racing team from a particular country, yacht club, or college just for example.
The tactics are the same, some team members are "blockers" who steal the wind ("blanket") of particular competitors who are ranked higher, and other team members attempt to seize and protect the most desirable lane ("cover") for the lead/fastest boat of the team, or the team boat that needs to improve its position the most. I've been sailing, and racing, with my old Dad for 35+ years now practicing these very tactics...and he was a multiple World Champion in his day (1970's).
It's no different than team bicycle racing.
I'm talking about dingy racing. Many, if not most, dingy racing venues provide for team racing. In other words, a dingy racing team from a particular country, yacht club, or college just for example.
The tactics are the same, some team members are "blockers" who steal the wind ("blanket") of particular competitors who are ranked higher, and other team members attempt to seize and protect the most desirable lane ("cover") for the lead/fastest boat of the team, or the team boat that needs to improve its position the most. I've been sailing, and racing, with my old Dad for 35+ years now practicing these very tactics...and he was a multiple World Champion in his day (1970's).
It's no different than team bicycle racing.
Pete McCluskey.
Lifetime Supporter
Forza Ferrari:thumbsup: I think Alonso has the package today. I'm hoping that Webber gets a podium and the obnoxious Austrian kid has another brain fade and a DNF.
David Morton
Lifetime Supporter
Keith ,
Your wager is looking more and more, shall we say, a very lost lost cause.
But don't worry too much - we're only going to drink my winnings anyway.
Your wager is looking more and more, shall we say, a very lost lost cause.
But don't worry too much - we're only going to drink my winnings anyway.
Sorry, we don't use these tactics in competitive sailing in the rest of the world. Never heard of that before - must be a US thing. I also have over 50 years of competitive international sailing experience until poor health intervened.
Mind you we don't have that roller skating thingy you do either which is almost as you describe above, from memory.
It still doesn't compare with F1 though Cliff however much you wriggle but perhaps when the circus comes back to the USA they will decide to nominate a team "jam car" just to keep y'all happy.
Pete McCluskey.
Lifetime Supporter
Is limiting the number of engines a good idea or not?
A driver could win or loose the championship just because of being penalised for past engine failures.
By the look of it, Ferrari drivers have only ONE engine left each to the end of the season!
McLaren drivers 2 each left, as has Vettel.
But Webber has still 3 engines to play before the last GP!!
Drivers forced to change engine and go beyond their allocation, will be penalised by loosing 10 places on the starting grid.
That system doesn't give much chances for Alonso to clinch the title, but seems to favour Webber, no?
A driver could win or loose the championship just because of being penalised for past engine failures.
By the look of it, Ferrari drivers have only ONE engine left each to the end of the season!
McLaren drivers 2 each left, as has Vettel.
But Webber has still 3 engines to play before the last GP!!
Drivers forced to change engine and go beyond their allocation, will be penalised by loosing 10 places on the starting grid.
That system doesn't give much chances for Alonso to clinch the title, but seems to favour Webber, no?