Jeff Young
GT40s Supporter
My answer is they are not. Your answer was far more troubling.
GT40s.com Paddock Politics Thread
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Jeff, the stats I read (and I lived very near Houston, TX, which has a LOT of gang violence...so much, in fact, that it was the number one reason I moved away) all state that black-on-black violence is more prevalent than any other category of violence.
I have known and truly enjoyed many relationships with individuals who were black and they were all very reasonable individuals, but I do not engage in illegal activities (other than violating the speed laws of just about EVERY state through which I travel), so I would not be personally knowledgeable about the reason for those stats.
However, I do have an observation...based not only 30+ years living in the Houston suburbs, but also having served for 18 months as a mental health specialist for the Texas Department of Criminal Justice in their "Office of Professional Standards"...the black proportion of incarcerated individuals is much higher than expected (I know, that might just mean that juries are more likely to view black defendants as guilty, which is a reprehensible fact IF it is true because it truly defines the term "prejudice"), but the majority of individuals who were convicted of crimes by virtue of being captured on video committing those crimes were black, too. Was that out of proportion to the percentage of the total population that was black???...I don't know, sorry.
I now live in a very peaceful area of the U.S. We had a murder about 8 years ago in our county...it was the first in 30 years. I'm certainly enjoying the idea that we can count on another 22 years without one if we're going to get one every 30 years. In Houston it seemed like it was one every 30 hours, and on bad weekends it was much worse than that.
The stats speak for themselves...what can we do to change that? It's a disturbing and recurrent issue....:sad:
I'll answer that...education is the way out! Most crime seems to be poverty-driven. It's a vicious cycle, IMHO!
Doug
Jeff Young
GT40s Supporter
Correct. Almost all studies show that poverty is the no. 1 cause of violence/crime.
As we spent 200+ years in this country depriving black folks of the right to work, to an education, beaking up their families, treating them as property, lynching them and denying them the vote, it is perhaps not surprising that blacks lag far behind white folks in educational attainment, income levels, home ownership rates, etc. and have far higher incarceration rates, etc.
None of this magically went away in 1970 at the end of the Civil Rights era. Our resident board whiteys will of course claim "but I'm not racist!" and I'm sure they are not. That fact doesn't change the impact 200 years of history have had on the actual numbers. Our society remain unequal, particularly when it comes to income and opportunity.
It's not that black folks are inherently more violent, or that "black society" is inherently more violent. It's that we spent 200 years creating a poor underclass and then magically expected them to act "not poor" when we finally came ot our senses and realized it was wrong.
As we spent 200+ years in this country depriving black folks of the right to work, to an education, beaking up their families, treating them as property, lynching them and denying them the vote, it is perhaps not surprising that blacks lag far behind white folks in educational attainment, income levels, home ownership rates, etc. and have far higher incarceration rates, etc.
None of this magically went away in 1970 at the end of the Civil Rights era. Our resident board whiteys will of course claim "but I'm not racist!" and I'm sure they are not. That fact doesn't change the impact 200 years of history have had on the actual numbers. Our society remain unequal, particularly when it comes to income and opportunity.
It's not that black folks are inherently more violent, or that "black society" is inherently more violent. It's that we spent 200 years creating a poor underclass and then magically expected them to act "not poor" when we finally came ot our senses and realized it was wrong.
Doug is on the right path with that explanation. Jeff, you're just putting your head in the sand as the DOJ stats show exactly what Doug mentioned. The injustices you speak of are largely 50 years old although the poverty certainly remains. Affirmative action is alive and well, but a kid black kid can't get a high school education without getting shot.....by another black kid. So why are blacks killing each other at such a high rate? Why are poor latino communities (who are just as poor, clearly not "whitey" and have no better access to schools or opportunity than poor blacks) not suffering the same problem?
I would add that many leaders in black communities have been more self-serving then they should be (Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson Jr. etc etc) and have done a disservice by fanning the flames of distrust and hate rather than offering constructive solutions to the problem.
The increased scrutiny of police (partly due to Black Lives Matters) has resulted in police in Chicago minimizing there contact with potential perpetrators unless they're certain a crime is underway. As a result, they've taken a more hands off approach and the crime has escalated accordingly. So, Black Lives Matters has likely contributed to more deaths, in the Chicago area at least.
I would add that many leaders in black communities have been more self-serving then they should be (Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson Jr. etc etc) and have done a disservice by fanning the flames of distrust and hate rather than offering constructive solutions to the problem.
The increased scrutiny of police (partly due to Black Lives Matters) has resulted in police in Chicago minimizing there contact with potential perpetrators unless they're certain a crime is underway. As a result, they've taken a more hands off approach and the crime has escalated accordingly. So, Black Lives Matters has likely contributed to more deaths, in the Chicago area at least.
At some point it begins to sound stupid to blame me or Doug or any other white guy for the black gang member who shoots another gang member in a town we don't live in. Yes, there were likely injustices that kids parents or grandparents suffered from but he hasn't to the same extent. Yes, many black communities are poor (although a Haitian would disagree) Still, at some point, common human decency should require that we expect people to obey the law, take a degree of personal responsibility for their own actions, and not senselessly kill another human being.
Jeff Young
GT40s Supporter
I don't know why folks like you continuously get defensive about this when the history and its impact are pointed out here. No one is blaming YOU. Stop with the whiny white guy stuff.
But it is an undeniable fact that black folks are at a severe disadvantage to whites in the US in income, education and incarceration rates. You have two choices. You can either believe that is the long term impact of 250 years of Jim Crow and slavery, or you can believe it is something inherent in black folks or their leaders.
I go with the former.
And comparing the African American experience to the Latino or Asian experience? Typical white guy dodge. No No No No. Latinos and Asians were never SLAVES. They wer enever subjected to Jim Crow laws. For chrissakes it is those kind of stupid analogies that make it impossible to talk about race in this country.
But it is an undeniable fact that black folks are at a severe disadvantage to whites in the US in income, education and incarceration rates. You have two choices. You can either believe that is the long term impact of 250 years of Jim Crow and slavery, or you can believe it is something inherent in black folks or their leaders.
I go with the former.
And comparing the African American experience to the Latino or Asian experience? Typical white guy dodge. No No No No. Latinos and Asians were never SLAVES. They wer enever subjected to Jim Crow laws. For chrissakes it is those kind of stupid analogies that make it impossible to talk about race in this country.
I'm not defensive, I know I'm not to blame. Why do you insist on completely absolving the black community for the violence that exists within it? Yes, no Latinos have been enslaved but no black has been enslaved for 150 years and the civil rights laws have been in place for 50. At what point does that excuse begin to lose it's luster. 25 more years? 50 more years? How does poverty justify killing another innocent human being. Your approach is convenient, but lazy.
Jeff Young
GT40s Supporter
My approach is historical fact.
I'm not absolving anyone of anything. I'm a realist. I know that poverty causes crime. I know that black folks will continue to commit crimes at higher rates than whites so long as the economic balance is skewed so dramatically against them.
I also know this will take time. I'm 47. I started elementary school in Shelbyville TN in 1975. My class was one of the first to be fully integrated. THe parents of my black peers in general had no opportunity to college for the most part. Had no opportunity to vote for most of their adult lives. And yet we expect their children to magically buy into the American dream?
Does that help understand how bogus the "it's been 50 years!" argument truly is?
I'm not absolving anyone of anything. I'm a realist. I know that poverty causes crime. I know that black folks will continue to commit crimes at higher rates than whites so long as the economic balance is skewed so dramatically against them.
I also know this will take time. I'm 47. I started elementary school in Shelbyville TN in 1975. My class was one of the first to be fully integrated. THe parents of my black peers in general had no opportunity to college for the most part. Had no opportunity to vote for most of their adult lives. And yet we expect their children to magically buy into the American dream?
Does that help understand how bogus the "it's been 50 years!" argument truly is?
No it doesn't explain why a 15 yo black kid participates in a drive by killing with a 4yo vicitim as an innocent bystander.
That kid's parents were born in 1980, long after the civil rights movement, and he never knew anyone who recalls pre-civil rights.
Your approach is a not fact. It is your opinion shaped by the inherrant biases that you have.
That kid's parents were born in 1980, long after the civil rights movement, and he never knew anyone who recalls pre-civil rights.
Your approach is a not fact. It is your opinion shaped by the inherrant biases that you have.
Jeff Young
GT40s Supporter
My approach is entirely fact. That 15 year old black was likely raised by separate parents who never had a chance at a college education, and whose parents in turn couldn't vote, etc.
You're pretty much defining white privilege, and you are also failing to offer a reasonable explanation for the huge disparity in economic and educational achievement between whites and blacks, while I am pointing to historical fact that directly caused it.
This notion amongst (admittedly not racist) middle aged white men that the effects of Jim Crow and slavery just disappeared circa 1970 is one of the stupidest things I encounter these days. Just dumb.
You're pretty much defining white privilege, and you are also failing to offer a reasonable explanation for the huge disparity in economic and educational achievement between whites and blacks, while I am pointing to historical fact that directly caused it.
This notion amongst (admittedly not racist) middle aged white men that the effects of Jim Crow and slavery just disappeared circa 1970 is one of the stupidest things I encounter these days. Just dumb.
I've been reading this thread and honestly didn't want to get involved beyond supporting Jeff's argument about the systemic issues in society about how African Americans have been (mis)treated and still are being (mis)treated.
Here's an article that I've read recently called "The Case for Reparations." It's about a 50-60 page article and the author certainly has his bias, but "the plunder" (of African Americans) as the author calls it, still happens today. The last few paragraphs cites recent instances of discrimination by a couple of banks, Wells Fargo and Countrywide (Bank of America), in the Years of 2010-2011. If you think all the problems have been solved or nearly solved or even close to being solved, then I think you're wrong too.
The Case for Reparations by Ta-Nehisi Coates - The Atlantic
Now back to arguing.
Here's an article that I've read recently called "The Case for Reparations." It's about a 50-60 page article and the author certainly has his bias, but "the plunder" (of African Americans) as the author calls it, still happens today. The last few paragraphs cites recent instances of discrimination by a couple of banks, Wells Fargo and Countrywide (Bank of America), in the Years of 2010-2011. If you think all the problems have been solved or nearly solved or even close to being solved, then I think you're wrong too.
The Case for Reparations by Ta-Nehisi Coates - The Atlantic
Now back to arguing.
I agree somewhat, Jeff. However, I lived in an area of the U.S. where there is a STRONG interest in "cultural preservation"...for example, I was married into a Hispanic family for 17 years before my wife died of cancer. The family matriarch, who was born in the US and lived here all of her life, and who fully understood everything she heard on the English language TV channels, only spoke two words in English in my presence during that 17 years..."baby cry".
Why didn't she speak more English? It was a simple matter of cultural preservation...she had raised all 7 of her children trying to preserve their Hispanic culture, and who can blame her for that? In fact, my wife, who was an incredibly intelligent person, was held back in Kindergarten so that she could learn more English and be prepared to go to school. All of the children could and did speak fluent English as adults, but preferred to speak their "native" language of Spanish...it was how their life was for all of their lives.
IMHO there is an element of "cultural preservation" in the black culture that wants to retain the anger that they rightfully feel regarding the way blacks were mistreated for long periods in our country. SO many of those practices have now changed, but the cultural anger has not. True, we're not the ones who subjected them to those indignities, but we are descendants of those who did, so in their eyes we are the rightful targets for their anger. That does not, however, explain the reason why black-on-black crime is so high, other than generalized anger can play a part in that. When one is raised to be angry about one transgression, it's easy to generalize that to other situations about which the party is angry, so I can understand why in that respect.
As for reparations, Rod...I'll read that lengthy article, but I don't think I should be held accountable for the crimes or transgressions of my ancestors. I didn't commit those acts, in fact I have enthusiastically embraced friendships with individuals of all cultures/races. In my eyes I have done what I can to change the culture of hatred that our national history has brought about in the black culture, but I'm just one person and I can't make much of a dent in that cultural anger...no matter how much I try.
If you ask me, though...the Native American culture has more reason to be angry than the black culture...but that's just MHO.
Doug
Jeff, your "approach" is just that and nothing more. You're not a sociologist nor a cultural anthropologist (and therefore not an authority on the subject) and are a highly biased individual. Believing you present "facts" only works in your own echo chamber. It's easy to blame "whitey" as you like to call white people like me, but there are no takers. It also solves nothing. Many ineffective black leaders have vociferously blamed "the white man" for all their troubles (Farrakhan, Sharpton etc) and it has accomplished nothing but inflame the hatred on both sides and give racists whites a justification for their bigotry and a reason to not help the black community.
I think Doug makes a very valid point. And yes, the Native American Culture has been shat upon impressively.
Reparations are a nonstarter. The son is not responsible for the sins of the father. Furthermore, I think the most successful solutions are likely to come from within the black community. External solutions "imposed" are likely to fail, no matter how much money the govt throws at it.
I'm very disappointed in the (young) black community glorifying a culture of violence via gangs and hip hop rather than a culture of peaceful but unwavering resistence and progress so fantastically and effectively manifested by Martin Luther King.
So the tough lot the 15yo has had and the history of black injustice in the US is a justification for killing. Ever get anyone off with that excuse counselor?
I think Doug makes a very valid point. And yes, the Native American Culture has been shat upon impressively.
Reparations are a nonstarter. The son is not responsible for the sins of the father. Furthermore, I think the most successful solutions are likely to come from within the black community. External solutions "imposed" are likely to fail, no matter how much money the govt throws at it.
I'm very disappointed in the (young) black community glorifying a culture of violence via gangs and hip hop rather than a culture of peaceful but unwavering resistence and progress so fantastically and effectively manifested by Martin Luther King.
So the tough lot the 15yo has had and the history of black injustice in the US is a justification for killing. Ever get anyone off with that excuse counselor?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_football
I really don't worry much about Trump starting a nuclear war...
It's too late to do much about it now, but hopefully enough people will realize that the only real issues with the race for the office of POTUS Should be centric around two things:
1) Supreme Court nominations - This alone has the ability to shape our world forever.
2) Financial prowess that can cut through the miles of crap and establish a trade policy which has the potential of restoring the USA as a manufacturing leader..
God help us...
I really don't worry much about Trump starting a nuclear war...
It's too late to do much about it now, but hopefully enough people will realize that the only real issues with the race for the office of POTUS Should be centric around two things:
1) Supreme Court nominations - This alone has the ability to shape our world forever.
2) Financial prowess that can cut through the miles of crap and establish a trade policy which has the potential of restoring the USA as a manufacturing leader..
God help us...
Just to be clear, the reason I posted the article is that the author's argument is that African Americans are still today being "plundered." The "plundering" continues to this day and didn't end with the 1960's.
As for reparations, you'll have to read the article. The case for reparations, IMO, is laid down well. The article goes many examples, including Native Americans were given land and the ability to build and own casinos. Israel was established after Hitler and WWII by Europe/UN. Concentration camp survivors were/are given reparations by the German government and so on.
As for reparations, you'll have to read the article. The case for reparations, IMO, is laid down well. The article goes many examples, including Native Americans were given land and the ability to build and own casinos. Israel was established after Hitler and WWII by Europe/UN. Concentration camp survivors were/are given reparations by the German government and so on.
You failed to grasp my POINT about the Gore/Trump election compro...and, by extension, the Bill Clinton/Trump 'sex' business, which was, to wit:
When Bill was caught doing what he did (as opposed to talking about it as in Trump's case), the lefty talking heads (and lefties in general) circled the wagons in his defense. E.g.: James Carville told anyone who'd listen it was "just about sex...just about sex". We were told 'it's no big deal'...that a politician's/candidate's private life is his/her private life and nunna the public's business. But, when the Trump audio tape made the news - the left was oh so self-righteously & hypocritically FLABERGASTED!!! Oh, Trump was just the WORLD'S WORST. He should drop out of the race, blah, blah, blah. But, evidently the fact that Billary had aided and abetted Bill by launching a smear campaign against Bill's 'conquests' somehow didn't qualify as a reason for her to drop out of the 2016 election. Neither have any of the revelations about 'pay to play', or putting classified info at risk, or destroying emails under subpoena by congress, or lying to congress, or any of the rest of her laundry list of her transgressions risen to that level.
With regard to the 2000 election, Gore didn't WANT a total recount in Florida. He only wanted a recount in democrat strongholds. God FORBID there be a recount in areas where Bush might pick up votes - as in a recount of the entire STATE. That wasn't an attempt to 'rig' the outcome? Further, the Gore campaign tried to get the ballots of armed forces personnel overseas disqualified because those ballots lacked POSTMARKS! They also tried to have those same ballots disqualified if they DIDN'T ARRIVE by a legally specified time...even though they were mailed in time (military mail is notoriously s-l-o-w getting in and out of certain places - like combat zones for instance). Why try to block military ballots? Because the majority of military personnel historically vote GOP, that's why. That wasn't an attempt to 'rig' the outcome? Additionally, if you've paid any attention at all to the news lately, you should be aware of the amount of voter fraud that's being found almost daily...like this: Voter Fraud Is Real. Here But, the left insists voter fraud is a minuscule rarity.
So, considering the above, just how should one define "rigging" an election?
'Rhetorical question. I know how you'd define it.
G'night all.
Big difference, Larry.
Lewinsky was a willing participant...who knows, perhaps she was even the aggressor. As for it being "just sex", it really was just sex between two consenting adults. The only harm done would have been suffered by then POTUS Bill Clinton...can you imagine the A$$ chewing he must have had to endure at the hands of Hillary??? That makes Bill's actions a very bad choice, but nothing more. As I have stated before...JFK was a much more voracious sexual predator!!!
However, in the case of Trump's transgressions each and every one of the women who have come forth with their story certainly did NOT welcome those advances...that makes Trump's choices assaults under the law.
Maybe Trump should be prosecuted and imprisoned with Hillary?
Put 'em both in the same cell and let 'em go at each other...can you envision that???
Cheers???? Maybe...but grins fer sure!!!
Doug
Lewinsky was a willing participant...who knows, perhaps she was even the aggressor. As for it being "just sex", it really was just sex between two consenting adults. The only harm done would have been suffered by then POTUS Bill Clinton...can you imagine the A$$ chewing he must have had to endure at the hands of Hillary??? That makes Bill's actions a very bad choice, but nothing more. As I have stated before...JFK was a much more voracious sexual predator!!!
However, in the case of Trump's transgressions each and every one of the women who have come forth with their story certainly did NOT welcome those advances...that makes Trump's choices assaults under the law.
Maybe Trump should be prosecuted and imprisoned with Hillary?
Put 'em both in the same cell and let 'em go at each other...can you envision that???
Cheers???? Maybe...but grins fer sure!!!
Doug
Doug, most companies have policies against superiors and subordinates having relationships. It has lead to many a CEO getting fired. In this case, Lewinsky was a lowly intern. Not against the law, but a setup for sexual harrassment.
I find it dubious when people come forward at this time making accusations against Trump. It smells of self-serving publicity seeking.
In Bill's case, there was a huge list of women who came forward with confirmed affairs long before he ran for President. Bill is far more charming than Trump, and he's certainly a more effective predator. Furthermore, he perjured himself over it, Trump hasn't (at least not yet...).
Still interested in Jeff's explanation as to the prevalence of violence and gun violence in particular in the black community. The self-righteous explanation given only accounts for black-on-white violence, which is overall a fairly small number. It does not explain the black-on-black violence which is a larger problem by many multiples.
I find it dubious when people come forward at this time making accusations against Trump. It smells of self-serving publicity seeking.
In Bill's case, there was a huge list of women who came forward with confirmed affairs long before he ran for President. Bill is far more charming than Trump, and he's certainly a more effective predator. Furthermore, he perjured himself over it, Trump hasn't (at least not yet...).
Still interested in Jeff's explanation as to the prevalence of violence and gun violence in particular in the black community. The self-righteous explanation given only accounts for black-on-white violence, which is overall a fairly small number. It does not explain the black-on-black violence which is a larger problem by many multiples.
Sure, Steve, I understand. We all know about Jennifer Flowers, not to mention the plethora of women with whom Clinton was unfaithful...but they were all mutually consenting encounters, which takes them out of the realm of sexual harrassment.
Trump's actions were self directed and NOT welcome and just a few women might be good reason to suspect self-serving motivations, but this is a large number of complaintants and I'd bet there are MANY more victims who would rather just supress the memory of the incident rather than suffer the public indignation of having to describe Trump's self-serving attacks in detail.
He's just not, IMHO, qualified to represent the US in the world-wide arena. Once a liar, always a liar...once a predator, always a predator :stunned:
Do we want to risk further ridicule in the eyes of the world over this bozo's idea of a good time? Not me... :furious:
As for whether Trump has "perjured" himself regarding these accusations, I say swear him in and let a legislative committee grill him like they did Clinton...he WILL deny it and the sheer magnitude of complaintants would lead to the logical conclusion that he lied...as I believe he has already with his denials.
Cheers!
Doug
Trump's actions were self directed and NOT welcome and just a few women might be good reason to suspect self-serving motivations, but this is a large number of complaintants and I'd bet there are MANY more victims who would rather just supress the memory of the incident rather than suffer the public indignation of having to describe Trump's self-serving attacks in detail.
He's just not, IMHO, qualified to represent the US in the world-wide arena. Once a liar, always a liar...once a predator, always a predator :stunned:
Do we want to risk further ridicule in the eyes of the world over this bozo's idea of a good time? Not me... :furious:
As for whether Trump has "perjured" himself regarding these accusations, I say swear him in and let a legislative committee grill him like they did Clinton...he WILL deny it and the sheer magnitude of complaintants would lead to the logical conclusion that he lied...as I believe he has already with his denials.
Cheers!
Doug
Ian Anderson
Lifetime Supporter
Amazing isn't it
There is a race in the USA
There are no women involved
And a black bloke is currently in the lead.
This is a car forum and nobody even mentioned it
There is a race in the USA
There are no women involved
And a black bloke is currently in the lead.
This is a car forum and nobody even mentioned it
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