Note to Conservatives

[Doug S.]

Could Dylan have described the radical conservative movement any more prophetically:

"Yes, my guard stood hard when abstract threats
Too noble to neglect
Deceived me into thinking
I had something to protect
Good and bad, I define these terms
Quite clear, no doubt, somehow"

.....if only they could become "....younger than that now", no?

Cheers from Doug!

 

[Cliff Beer]

For those of us living in the USA, we are fortunate....very fortunate indeed. No other country, geography, government, nor grouping of man (inc. women) of any sort in time has ever produced as much personal wealth, personal freedom, civility, longevity, or opportunity for so many as the USA has since the revolutionary war with England. We complain about minor encroachments upon person freedom, or that there's a 10+% unemployment rate, or that we have to pay a very modest level of taxes......these are all only problems when the status quo is a pretty darn good situation! We don't have mass starvation, civil war, no opportunity, no education, brutal dictators, no health care or running water or no utilities - the things the most people around the world face on a daily basis. Forget the EU, think about where the really big concentrations of people are....China, India, Latin America...these places have all these problems, and billions of people in these horrible situations. We are very, very fortunate.

That's not to say there aren't issues that need to be fixed. The two that are front and center in my brain are: 1) low levels of ethics in the corporate board room, and 2) low levels of trust in political officials and rampant partisanship.

The proper functioning of our civilized society depends mostly on psychology.....the belief that our government acts rationally and in the best interests of citizens (not what's in the best interests of the politician (re-election and power/money)), and the belief that the capital markets and business in general works rationally as well. These corporate smooth talkers and tycoons that take multi-million dollar compensation packages don't deserve it! Nobody, no matter how good they think they are, is worth that kind of compensation. There's plenty of other folks who are just as well qualified and capable (perhaps even better) who are willing to work for much less. Boards who approve such comp packages are out of control and need to be subject to personal liability (ie. no restitution right from the corporation). Politicians need to clean up their act, stop the partisan BS, and get on with doing what the citizens sent them to Washington to do: represent citizens and act with care and concern for getting things done properly and efficiently. Political office is not a career job, it's a privilege and politicians serve by the grace of the citizenry, not the reverse.

Time for a revolution.....

 

[David Sturch]

Cliff,

Here is some reading for you. I wonder how your guys would fare with these rules.
Dave

Elections Canada On-Line | Political Financing

 

[Jim Craik]

Cliff,

I agree with all you just said, thanks for bringing a small amount of sanity to the discussion.

David,

Oh Canada!

 

[wpeter]

Wow,
I think we should take a deep breath and understand one thing. We ALL have a lot more in common than we do differences. This country was a compromise from the beginning.
I think we can all agree the politicians don't listen to the voter.
How do we get that right back?

 

We are not all tall, athletic, intelligent, muscular, healthy, white, etc, etc, etc.

I respectfully agree with the above 99%, except the "white" part does not really rhymes with those other words, ANY other color will do.

Maybe if it was written like this, it would have made more sense,

"We are not all Fat, paranoid, gun totting, racist, white bubba, etc, etc, etc"

 

[Jim Craik]

Good morning Mr Sheik, its good to have you back!

 

[Jim Craik]

Doug,

The next verse is fitting as well......

"A self ordained professors tongue too serious to fool,
spouted out that Liberty is just equality in school,
EQALITY, I spoke their word as if a wedding vow
ah, but I was so much older then
I'm younger than that now".

Robert Zimmerman

 

Time for a revolution.....

You may be advocating revolution,,,,

But my "friend" Montana and I are advocating Sharia Law & JIHAD

 

Doug,

The next verse is fitting as well......

"A self ordained professors tongue too serious to fool,
spouted out that Liberty is just equality in school
EQALITY, I spoke their word as if a wedding vow
ah but I was so much older then
I'm younger than that now".

Robert Zimmerman

You and Douglas and,,,,your horrible music ( I mean have you listen to that voice, he should have been beheaded, his lyrics though are good)

Jethro Tull song was written about some on this tread,,,,,,,, THICK AS BRICK

 

[Jim Craik]

Komrad Shiek,

I like him because his voice makes me sound pritty good.

 

[Mark Worthington]

Jim, your original post:

You may have missed this news, as Fox does not cover this sort of thing!

Today, GM joined most of the other companys that received bail out funds from the govenment and paid the funds BACK ***IN FULL WITH INTEREST***

To Limbaugh, Hannity and some people on this form who said this was a Socialist take over of US business I will wait for you to admit you were wrong! Although I will not hold by breath!

Finally, 66 posts later, after much prodding, you were forced to admit you were wrong:

As far as the original post, although I thought this was covered early on, obviously the headline I heard on the way to my office was more than a little short on the complete story and a little premature. But I am willing to bet that they will be totally repaid with interest.

For the record, and on topic, we have established that this "payback" was essentially GM closing out an escrow account. The US government gave GM approximately $50 billion, of which about $43 billion was converted to equity. The US taxpayers, who own 60% of this new entity, will not be made whole unless GM v2.0 issues public stock and manages to increase its market capitalization to about $72 billion. At that level, if the US Treasury could arrange an orderly sale of its 60% stake in the company, GM would have paid off its debt (without interest). Note that this market capitalization would be significantly greater than the historic market cap high of GM v1.0 of about $50 billion in 2000. They're going to have to sell a lot of Volts and Vettes to make these numbers work.

I'd like to take you up on your offer to bet on the future ability of GM to make the US taxpayers whole. I will bet you $1,000 that GM will not be able to completely pay off their debt. Obviously, we're going to have to put some sort of a term on this, but you seem to have so much confidence in the Obama administration's ability to bring about economic prosperity that it should be a sure thing, right? Let's give it 5 years - to May 1, 2015. At that point in time, Dear Leader will be basking in the glow of his second term, we'll be friendly with the Iranian mullahs, US citizens will be enjoying unprecedented quality of health care along with low levels of taxation, we'll get 90% of our energy from renewable sources, the standard of living in the US will be at an all-time high, and GM will have paid off its debt. Come on, Jim, put your money where your mouth is. I've been on this forum for 8 years; I expect to be around for at least another five years. We both own GT40s. The credit risks are acceptable. Make the bet with me. You may actually win because hyperinflation might do to GM's stock price what GM management and the UAW can't.

While you are pondering my offer, I'd like to suggest that you expand your horizons beyond the Bay Area's left-wing media bubble from which you get only the information that Obama's lap dogs in the press corps want you to hear. Dare I say you might actually get a more complete picture of current events if you actually listened to Fox News? Maybe at least the Wall Street Journal? Glass houses, dude, you're living in one and throwing stones at conservatives.

 

[Cliff Beer]

Thanks for posting this in the first place Jim - a good debate here, and obviously lot of sub-points have come out of it. Across the different view points and perspective here on the site a reasonably balanced understanding of the heart of the matter emerges. Kudos to all who debate such things with an open mind, and tolerance to others perspectives.

 

[Ron Earp]

A well written piece that appears to check out factually:

GM's Phony Bailout Payback - Reason Magazine

 

[Jeff Young]

I'll try to post it later this week, but the Bankruptcy Court opinion in the GM bankruptcy is fairly illuminating on the "whys" for doing what we did with GM. The numbers turn my stomach, but the "too big to fail" analysis done on the disruptive effect a GM liquidation would have on the US economy were truly scary. The ripple through GM suppliers, etc. was of extraordinary potential scope.

Again, I was fundamentally opposed to the bailouts of banks and the car companies at the time, and still am philosophically. But practically speaking, NOT doing it meant potentially millions of Americans losing their jobs and businesses. Millions.

That was the hard choice faced by both the Bush and Obama administrations. We can bandy around terms like "socialism," or "cronyism" or whatever we want, but the fundamental fact is some of the best economic and political minds on BOTH sides of the aisle looked at this and were so scared by the consequences did something that I don't think (and I know some disagree) they really wanted to have to do.

When things settle down, and historians and economists look aback on September 2008 to the end of 2009, I think you are going to see them saying how close we came to something that would have been truly disastrous for the world economy.

 

[Roark_John]

This "minor" inconvenience we call the Great Recession was calamitous for myself and many others.

I lost my house, my life savings, my car and my job. I struggled for 1 year and 4 months before I ran out of extensions and money.

I was not over-leveraged and over-extended as alot of folks were. No second mortgage, no garage full of fancy toys.

I had a modestly priced house ($87,950) in a depressed neighborhood. I had a decent paying job (@$60,000/yr), a rather ordinary primary vehicle (2004 Toyota Corolla) and no debt other than my mortgage and car loan.

I played "the game" and invested 20% of every paycheck into my 401k and health savings account. When the market crashed, I lost almost $140,000 in value according to my 401k statement. I also lost my job. The oil & gas industry took a bath...and I was one of many, many casualties.

My 401k never recovered...because I had the majority of my portfolio in high risk offerings...y'know, all those subprime mortgages and the like.

Yep...I was stupid thinking that I too could profit. Silly as I was, I honestly thought that the investors would see a cut of those windfall profits. Truth is, since the majority of that stuff was toxic and/or only existed on paper, there was never any value there to begin with.

Those programs to help home owners refinance or save their house from foreclosure? I never came close to qualifying...I made too much money before the crash and I had savings that I was told I should pay down my debt with. Of course that money was no longer there, but what are trivial details like that anyway?

Through all of this, I have managed to start my own business, scratching and clawing to find a niche to make a living with. I still don't think that anyone owes me anything, or that becoming a socialist nation would help me one iota.

You pays your money and you plays the game. There are losers in all walks of life. That is why the fallacy of equality is so ridiculous. You can never have winners when there are no losers.

Such is life. Every day I rebuild, becoming stronger than I was before...mentally, emotionally and physically. I will never be a victim or sit on the sidelines.

Too bad all the whiners and cry-babies can't Cowboy Up, as they say around here...they might actually have a chance at winning then

 

[Scott Calabro]

Mark Worthington
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<!-- google_ad_section_start(weight=ignore) -->Mark Worthington<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
10 tenths

Join Date: Dec 2001
GT40: Massachusetts
Posts: 1,859


Please excuse the slight deviation in thread content boyz....



Mark, good to have you back for a visit Bra!

Lets do lunch sometime.

 

[tom pritchett]

I am sick. Today I took the C6 corvette in for a track inspection from the dealer that I bought the car from. There are signs up touting, once again, that the loan has been paid back, please buy a new car.

I have lost respect for the CEO of GM that is touting this untruth. It makes me feel like I can't trust the company that he is representing. Don't think that I will be buying a new vette.

 

[Jim Rosenthal]

Frankly, I think they paid back just enough to think they were qualified to claim they'd paid it back. I don't think I'd buy one of their products either, which is a shame, because they are making some good stuff. I think GM is suffering from a severe case of "alligator mouth, parakeet ass".

 

[Roark_John]

I guess my point about all this was...why was it ok for MYSELF and millions of others like myself to fail...but not millions of others who might have failed had GM gone extinct?

That has to be the greatest exercise of circular logic I have ever heard.

I didn't get a bailout, my company didn't get a bailout...GM never should have received a bailout either. Every person attached to that sinking ship should have been sucked down in the slip-trail...that is how it works in the real world.

But then, we all know we live in the USSA today, and that some people are indeed better than others.

This "minor" inconvenience we call the Great Recession was calamitous for myself and many others.

I lost my house, my life savings, my car and my job. I struggled for 1 year and 4 months before I ran out of extensions and money.

I was not over-leveraged and over-extended as alot of folks were. No second mortgage, no garage full of fancy toys.

I had a modestly priced house ($87,950) in a depressed neighborhood. I had a decent paying job (@$60,000/yr), a rather ordinary primary vehicle (2004 Toyota Corolla) and no debt other than my mortgage and car loan.

I played "the game" and invested 20% of every paycheck into my 401k and health savings account. When the market crashed, I lost almost $140,000 in value according to my 401k statement. I also lost my job. The oil & gas industry took a bath...and I was one of many, many casualties.

My 401k never recovered...because I had the majority of my portfolio in high risk offerings...y'know, all those subprime mortgages and the like.

Yep...I was stupid thinking that I too could profit. Silly as I was, I honestly thought that the investors would see a cut of those windfall profits. Truth is, since the majority of that stuff was toxic and/or only existed on paper, there was never any value there to begin with.

Those programs to help home owners refinance or save their house from foreclosure? I never came close to qualifying...I made too much money before the crash and I had savings that I was told I should pay down my debt with. Of course that money was no longer there, but what are trivial details like that anyway?

Through all of this, I have managed to start my own business, scratching and clawing to find a niche to make a living with. I still don't think that anyone owes me anything, or that becoming a socialist nation would help me one iota.

You pays your money and you plays the game. There are losers in all walks of life. That is why the fallacy of equality is so ridiculous. You can never have winners when there are no losers.

Such is life. Every day I rebuild, becoming stronger than I was before...mentally, emotionally and physically. I will never be a victim or sit on the sidelines.

Too bad all the whiners and cry-babies can't Cowboy Up, as they say around here...they might actually have a chance at winning then